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The crazies have come to MN

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The crazies have come to MN

Old 09-28-21, 09:58 PM
  #26  
billridesbikes
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Originally Posted by macstuff View Post
I don't know what the rules are behind the official county made signs at every access that read "No Motorized Vehicles."
But I do know it is situational common sense.
The loop is a Pedestrian use path as well as a bicycle path.
No Motor driven vehicles covers internal combustion motors and electric motors. no matter if they are on a go cart or bicycle or scooter.
The policy conforms with the general rules of the road with pedestrians getting the ultimate right of way.
The Loop is not a transportation avenue it is a recreation feature, there are more people walking on it than riding. Its plain dangerous for even the packs of wannabe race boys that scoot around the path faster than 15mph. Blind curves, dogs, leashes, cell phones. Semi-pro bike pilots, recreational cyclists and people teetering around counting calories and groups of ladies dressed brightly walking fast and only paying attention to the point they are trying to make in the discussion.
It only makes sense to keep high speed vehicles out of this mix.
It has nothing to do with common sense! The federal government, in a regulation change late last year, defines ebikes that are <750w and <20mph as bicycles and therefore ‘non-motorized’. I think individual states will eventually follow suit with similar definitions for e-bikes.
https://electricbikeaction.com/e-bik...otor-vehicles/

Ebikes are here to stay, for better or for worse. They are very popular from what I can see. The transportation bill even has a tax credit if you buy a new Ebike, but not for a regular bike. In ten years it will probably be difficult to even buy non-Ebikes.
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Old 09-28-21, 10:14 PM
  #27  
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Not true. The person being passed can move over and slow down when it is safe for the other rider to pass.
When you pass someone your required to do it in a safe manner. Meaning you let them know your intent and only pass when it is safe to do so.

I don't know e-bikes but I don't doubt that. I think the 28mph "brag" I overheard was for an extended distance like 20-30 miles. But my point was not that 28mph is amazingly fast. It is that it exceeds the MN statute for e-bikes.
Yes MN has not jumped on the 3 class ebike system like 30 other states have.
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Old 09-29-21, 05:54 AM
  #28  
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Some lessons learned in Europe:

I believe prior to 2016 e-bikes were limited to 20 MPH.

Due to problems/conflicts between traditional bicycle riders and e-bikes, in 2016 e-bikes were limited to 15 MPH pedal-assist only (chart below). Throttles were no longer allowed. Pedal assist was generally viewed as the motor never providing more than 2x the bicycle rider's power (though this definition doesn't appear to have ever been official) - so if a bicycle rider produced 25w then the motor could produce up to 50w for a total of 75w ( 15 mph for a traditional opafiets + rider + 20lbs of cargo on flat ground with no wind).

This helped significantly but problems still persisted and then grew as e-bikes became more popular. Subsequently they learned:
  • The less of their own propulsion that someone uses the more likely they are to be a menace to other bicycle riders and this increases substantially at 0% (e.g. throttle).
  • 97% of bicycle riders travel between 9 and 15 MPH.
  • Over 90% of bicycle riders never needed nor produced more than 250 watts (up-hill or headwind).
  • Some of the worst menace were people who modified the speed limiter on their e-bike.

New laws are restricting e-bikes to 12.5 MPH (20 kph) pedal-assist only with assist tapered from 2x @ 9 MPH to 0w @ 13 MPH. They will likely also be limited to 150w, 200w or 250w. The hope is that this will make e-bike riders more equal in speed and maneuvering to pedal bicycle riders as well as more considerate of bicycle riders. While at the same time providing sufficient assist for those who need it such as elderly and people with disabilities.

They are also further limiting what bikeways a Light Moped (effectively an e-bike with a throttle) will be allowed on and there is some debate about reducing top speed on these to 13 mph but that could also result in increased problems for them when they are mixed with regular motor traffic.



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Old 09-29-21, 06:02 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Yes MN has not jumped on the 3 class ebike system like 30 other states have.
MN adopted the 3 class system in June 2021.
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Old 09-29-21, 06:06 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by macstuff View Post
I don't think that "most states exempt e-bikes from motorized classification." I'd have to see proof of that. Its counter intuitive. And I doubt that many States have even considered it yet. When the lawsuits become too much there will be an official look taken I'm sure.
These aren't bicycles though. The people that buy and use these are motivated by different circumstance than the bicyclists.
When you strap a motor to a bicycle it is a moped. It doesn't matter what it looks like or sounds like or smells like. Its a moped. It becomes a motor driven vehicle, it becomes more of a challenge to control.
There are electric trials motorcycles and there will be electric BMX and mountain and other types of off road biking, but an e-bike is a mo-ped and falls under all the rules we already have for mo-peds.
Mo-Peds can't use the bike lanes in Arizona, that I know. No motorized vehicles in the bike lanes.

Jeez, do a little googling before you post: https://evelo.com/blogs/ebike-laws/arizona



https://www.azleg.gov/viewDocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/28/00819.htm

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Old 09-29-21, 07:04 AM
  #31  
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No!

Originally Posted by homeless in ca. View Post
Not true. The person being passed can move over and slow down when it is safe for the other rider to pass.
No! The person being passed should hold their speed…the onus is on the passer to pass safely when it is safe to do so!
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Old 09-29-21, 07:11 AM
  #32  
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The passer is behind the person being passed! The passer has the clear view. Should person being passed slow down and pull over every time he/she hears a noise behind them?!
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Old 09-29-21, 08:30 AM
  #33  
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Blanket statements get blanket replies. It makes more sense to split e-bikes into classes by speed. An assist is completely different than a 1200watt 50mph e-bike.
Personally, I consider an assist bike more like a wheelchair and any other motorized bike a novelty for motorized style sport or for transportation.
E-bikes are no different than these 49cc (supposed limit) motorized bikes, but thank goodness they are quiet. They have to follow the motorized vehicle rules.

It seems pretty simple, but realize this is a class argument. If these were gas operated bikes being used primarily by the homeless and lowest class, costing $150-400, we would quickly place them in the motorized vehicle category and restrict them from everywhere but the streets.
But give the vehicle tiers of value and price them for the middle class and up, then we have to argue over semantics.
It comes down to;
"I paid a lot for my e-bike so I should be able to do whatever I want with it."
And those people have money enough to cause legal problems also so we coddle them.
So here we are.
It is time to separate definitions and stop pretending that two wheels is always called a bicycle.
I'd say make it easy, forget the tiers of sanction, you are simply buying a motorized vehicle or a non-motorized vehicle.
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Old 09-29-21, 12:26 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
MN adopted the 3 class system in June 2021.
Does Minneapolis restrict e-bikes on trails? Under most similar laws class 1 and 2 are allowed unless the city passes an ordinance.

https://www.peopleforbikes.org/elect...kes/state-laws
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Old 09-29-21, 01:05 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
No! The person being passed should hold their speed…the onus is on the passer to pass safely when it is safe to do so!
Disagree. If someone behind me wants to pass I can move over where it is safe. I am not obligated to do so. But lions claim that the individual being passed has no agency for avoiding a collision is false. He obviously does not know the meaning of defensive driving.
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Old 09-29-21, 03:34 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Gonzo Bob View Post
I don't know e-bikes but I don't doubt that. I think the 28mph "brag" I overheard was for an extended distance like 20-30 miles. But my point was not that 28mph is amazingly fast. It is that it exceeds the MN statute for e-bikes.
I sprinted up to 40 mph on a Specialized eBike back when they only made ONE model. One of my LBS had one and twisted my arm to ride it. Told me they would laugh at me if I didn't hit 30 mph. I hit 40 in a 35 while passing a cop. It was surprisingly easy to manage 30 mph. Just sayin'. Look at SpecialEds eBike selection now. Up to $15,000. No joke. The bike industry hasn't seen a phenomenon like this since index shifting. Those motorcycles will be everywhere, owned and rented. Better get used to it.
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Old 09-29-21, 05:39 PM
  #37  
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Nope!

Originally Posted by homeless in ca. View Post
Disagree. If someone behind me wants to pass I can move over where it is safe. I am not obligated to do so. But lions claim that the individual being passed has no agency for avoiding a collision is false. He obviously does not know the meaning of defensive driving.
How do you know that the passer wants to pass you…how do you know that there is even anyone there?
If they have announced their intention then that’s fine.
We are, or at least, I am talking about someone just bulling their way past you!
I would pull over if only for my safety when it was safe!
I don’t find myself in too many situations where I am impeding someone’s forward motion…I stay in my lane, to the right…I split my side of path, road into half again…to the right…and I always try to announce my presence when overtaking another rider…when safe for me to do so…they’re riding their ride and I’m riding mine…I try not to intrude…
Getting back to your statement about it is the some of the passee’s responsibility to avoid a collision when the passer is bringing the collision to the passer…the passee can ride as defensively as possible…the passer will not stop riding offensively until they are at risk…the passer is obviously not worried about the passee getting injured, mentally or physically…the offensive passer gets stronger and more offensive the more we give them our permission to be so…
Curious question…do you identify more as the passer or the passee?
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Old 09-30-21, 01:22 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
MN adopted the 3 class system in June 2021.
Whoops! Sorry - I posted the statutes from the 2017 MN Bike Manual I had on file. You are right - MN did modify a lot of the ebike statutes and adopted the 3 class system with most changes effective Aug 1, 2021. I just spent some time wading through the statutes chasing down the revisions. Lots of interrelated links between sections, fine print and legal verbiage, but from what I can sort out, they basically clarified some issues, created the 3 classes and reduced the wattage limit to 750w. There is a specific section that states an ebike is not a motorized vehicle. But they do retain the option for any appropriate governing body to restrict ebikes under certain criteria.

Nothing I could find specifically about the high-power kits or scratch builds - but it sure looks like a 1500w, 48V system is outside their statutes.

It will be interesting to see if and how they enforce any of this . . . .
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Old 09-30-21, 02:50 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
How do you know that the passer wants to pass you…how do you know that there is even anyone there?
If they have announced their intention then that’s fine.
We are, or at least, I am talking about someone just bulling their way past you!
I would pull over if only for my safety when it was safe!
I don’t find myself in too many situations where I am impeding someone’s forward motion…I stay in my lane, to the right…I split my side of path, road into half again…to the right…and I always try to announce my presence when overtaking another rider…when safe for me to do so…they’re riding their ride and I’m riding mine…I try not to intrude…
Getting back to your statement about it is the some of the passee’s responsibility to avoid a collision when the passer is bringing the collision to the passer…the passee can ride as defensively as possible…the passer will not stop riding offensively until they are at risk…the passer is obviously not worried about the passee getting injured, mentally or physically…the offensive passer gets stronger and more offensive the more we give them our permission to be so…
Curious question…do you identify more as the passer or the passee?
Homeless is on my ignore list, but now you've quoted him, I see he's lying yet again about what I said. My point was that if you are passing around a blind corner, you have no way of knowing whether someone around that corner is in the oncoming lane you're now occupying, and there is literally nowhere on the path nor any speed at which the passed person will be safe if the person coming the other direction in the lane has to swerve into the passee's lane to avoid the head-on. It's ridiculous to assume that the passee knows either the fact that someone is passing from behind or that someone is around the bend in the opposite lane, and the swerve is going to happen without any real warning.

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Old 09-30-21, 02:58 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by billnuke1 View Post
How do you know that the passer wants to pass you…how do you know that there is even anyone there?
If they have announced their intention then that’s fine.
We are, or at least, I am talking about someone just bulling their way past you!
I would pull over if only for my safety when it was safe!
I don’t find myself in too many situations where I am impeding someone’s forward motion…I stay in my lane, to the right…I split my side of path, road into half again…to the right…and I always try to announce my presence when overtaking another rider…when safe for me to do so…they’re riding their ride and I’m riding mine…I try not to intrude…
Getting back to your statement about it is the some of the passee’s responsibility to avoid a collision when the passer is bringing the collision to the passer…the passee can ride as defensively as possible…the passer will not stop riding offensively until they are at risk…the passer is obviously not worried about the passee getting injured, mentally or physically…the offensive passer gets stronger and more offensive the more we give them our permission to be so…
Curious question…do you identify more as the passer or the passee?
Totally agree with you.

Seriously, do you pass around a blind corner? What kind of idiot would?
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Old 10-06-21, 06:15 AM
  #41  
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A key principle of the Sustainable Safety is: Homogeneity (of mass, speed and direction of road users).

Mass includes size, weight and inertia (or power). E-bikes have greater inertia/power so a crash involving an e-bike, even if identical speeds to a crash of two bicycles, often results in greater injury and damage. On top of this is that many e-bike riders do not know how to handle the power that they now have, both the speed/handling aspects and stopping ability. This is a key reason that Europe is looking at reducing wattages so significantly. Even 150w of motor more than doubles the speed and inertia capability of most bicycle riders.

Speed is tough because of great differences in people's abilities. The vast majority of people (94% IIRC) ride between 9 and 15 MPH though with a very few riding slower or faster (Bell curve) and for the most part this works well. This is why outside of the U.S. e-bikes are limited to either 12.5 or 15 MPH with no assist above these speeds. This keeps e-bikes traveling at the same speeds as everyone else which is much safer and more comfortable. One key to this being safer is that it reduces passing. When people are going about the same speed there is much less need to pass. And passing does increase risk/danger for everyone.

When e-bikes are allowed up to 20 MPH they become a quite serious problem and one of these problems is significantly increased passing. Layered on top of this is that the less of their own effort that people provide the less considerate they are of others. And the greater the speed differential the more the faster rider becomes impatient with the slower riders. Someone going 20 MPH with little or none of their own effort is much less patient with a 10 MPH bicycle rider than someone propelling themselves at 13 MPH is. The 20 MPH e-bike rider will often take greater risks (for themselves and others), will pass closer and cut back in front sooner.

E-bikes are great tools and particularly for elderly and people with disabilities. They can also be a menace that makes bikeways more dangerous and uncomfortable for regular bicycle riders.
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Old 10-06-21, 09:26 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by MNebiker View Post
In the past few years I have encountered very few other ebikes on the local trails. Once in a while I would see a couple - her on an ebike, him on a road bike - maybe an older couple, both on ebikes or maybe an isolated single. But recently they seem to have multiplied to the point that I it is not uncommon to see several every time I ride. So far they all seemed to be ridden decently, with none of the crazy mad ebiker experiences that are usually reported on BF.

But that changed two days ago. I was riding a section of trail that runs through a heavily wooded lowland with many tight blind corners and few straight sections. I was riding comfortably through the winding trail at about 15mph when I saw two bikes in my mirror come up fast behind me. The man blew it past through a blind corner but the woman got caught behind me. She rode my rear wheel and then tried to pass on the next short straight just as two bikes came around the next blind corner in front of us. She braked, sliding both wheels and somehow we all managed to miss each other. It could have been messy with trees at the edge of the trail and no place to bail out. She almost took out 4 bikes in her rush to get by. In the process her ebike died and she called out for the man to wait. He stopped and as I caught up to him I clearly suggested that they cool it a bit and watch how they were riding on the blind corners. Probably didn't make a friend there.

So - the crazy ebikers have come to quiet suburban MN. Usually all I have to watch out for are dog walkers, joggers, and the guys in lycra running time trials for the TDF. Ah, the advance of technology . . . .
Might as well throw in the towel. People are buying e-bikes right and left. They are here to stay. BTW a year or more ago I predicted this was going to happen, and everyone laughed at me. Share the road and the trail.

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Old 10-06-21, 02:22 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW a year or so ago I predicted this was going to happen, and everyone laughed at me.

Yeah, that happened.

Pretty sure about a year and a half ago, everyone was noting that ebikes were the only segment showing any growth, and it was going nuts. Then COVID happened, and everything was selling.
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Old 10-06-21, 03:16 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
BTW a year or so ago I predicted this was going to happen, and everyone laughed at me.
I think they were laughing long before that.
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Old 10-07-21, 08:37 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
I think they were laughing long before that.
Sorry about your mental health problems.
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Old 10-07-21, 02:19 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Sorry about your mental health problems.

Sorry about your lack of time sense. No one was doubting the spreading popularity of ebikes about a year ago.

If you were "predicting" this like it was some sort of revelation a year ago, I'd laugh at you, too.
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Old 10-07-21, 11:20 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
In ten years it will probably be difficult to even buy non-Ebikes
LOL

You may see fewer mid range comfort bikes sold and more electrified ones. Alarmingly they're even the in gift for preteens in some settings apparently.

But both the low end of economic necessity, and the high end of athletic point-of-it will stay what they are.
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Old 10-07-21, 11:27 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
New laws are restricting e-bikes to 12.5 MPH (20 kph) pedal-assist only with assist tapered from 2x @ 9 MPH to 0w @ 13 MPH. They will likely also be limited to 150w, 200w or 250w. The hope is that this will make e-bike riders more equal in speed and maneuvering to pedal bicycle riders as well as more considerate of bicycle riders. While at the same time providing sufficient assist for those who need it such as elderly and people with disabilities.
Finally, some sanity.

I think the difference though is that what you are describing is a serious effort to use motors to augment cycling.

In contrast, while that's not unheard of here, a lot of what's happening in the US is the marketing not of electric "bicycles" but of an unregulated electric replacement for a car or motorcycle. The goal of those isnt to let more people do what you could do with a bike, the money making opportunity is basically to replace cycling with far faster mini-cars that share little with actual bikes other than still being a messy way to travel on a rainy day.

If we want electric mini-cars, we should give them weather fairings, put plates on them, make them actually safe for 30-35 mph operation, and put them on the ordinary lanes to tame those.

But cycling isn't "driving lite" but rather something fundamentally different.

Saddest part is the rate at which self styled cycling organizations are getting coopted into actually encouraging the displacement of actual cyclists and trivially motorized European-style cyclist-equivalents by these high speed miniature motor vehicles they fail to recognize as something entirely different and threatening.

Their refusal to admit that two wheels and the lack of an internal combustion engine is not enough to make something a "bicycle" means we may soon hit a tipping point where actual cyclists are scared off cycling infrastructure for good, and shared paths either become unusable by pedestrians, or become pedestrian only to the exclusion of even reasonable paced pedal cycling.

For cycling to continue to work, we have to recognize what's no longer a bike, and stop being willing to pretend otherwise. Motorcycles diverged from cycling over a century ago, and with good reason that had nothing to do with their using internal combustion rather than electric power.

Last edited by UniChris; 10-07-21 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 10-10-21, 08:07 PM
  #49  
Gonzo Bob
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Originally Posted by MNebiker View Post
Whoops! Sorry - I posted the statutes from the 2017 MN Bike Manual I had on file
The MN DNR website still has the exact text you quoted in your post, so they're out of date, too

Had my first negative encounter with an e-biker today. I was on a small group ride and we were on an MUP coming up to a "T" intersection and intending to turn left. There was a e-biker coming fast from the right so we all stopped, and he proceeded to turn left onto the trail we were on at a speed that was way too fast for safety. I estimate he was going about 25mph before the turn and slowed to maybe 20mph for the turn.
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Old 10-12-21, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Might as well throw in the towel. People are buying e-bikes right and left. They are here to stay. BTW a year or so ago I predicted this was going to happen, and everyone laughed at me. Share the road and the trail.
This is like me making a prediction right now that smart phones will be popular. Its a little late in the game to claim being right about a prediction that had already come true.
People were laughing at you for predicting something that was already known and happening.
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