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The crazies have come to MN

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The crazies have come to MN

Old 09-23-21, 02:54 PM
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MNebiker
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The crazies have come to MN

In the past few years I have encountered very few other ebikes on the local trails. Once in a while I would see a couple - her on an ebike, him on a road bike - maybe an older couple, both on ebikes or maybe an isolated single. But recently they seem to have multiplied to the point that I it is not uncommon to see several every time I ride. So far they all seemed to be ridden decently, with none of the crazy mad ebiker experiences that are usually reported on BF.

But that changed two days ago. I was riding a section of trail that runs through a heavily wooded lowland with many tight blind corners and few straight sections. I was riding comfortably through the winding trail at about 15mph when I saw two bikes in my mirror come up fast behind me. The man blew it past through a blind corner but the woman got caught behind me. She rode my rear wheel and then tried to pass on the next short straight just as two bikes came around the next blind corner in front of us. She braked, sliding both wheels and somehow we all managed to miss each other. It could have been messy with trees at the edge of the trail and no place to bail out. She almost took out 4 bikes in her rush to get by. In the process her ebike died and she called out for the man to wait. He stopped and as I caught up to him I clearly suggested that they cool it a bit and watch how they were riding on the blind corners. Probably didn't make a friend there.

So - the crazy ebikers have come to quiet suburban MN. Usually all I have to watch out for are dog walkers, joggers, and the guys in lycra running time trials for the TDF. Ah, the advance of technology . . . .
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Old 09-24-21, 08:19 AM
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If that's how they ride, I wonder how they drive.
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Old 09-24-21, 09:49 AM
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E-bikes are just another example of what happens when an average person can suddenly become powerful. Inevitably, they will not understand the responsibility that comes with it.
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Old 09-24-21, 10:09 AM
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we have them here too. don't remember what paved trail it was or the exact date, but it was a couple, agressively exceeding the trail's speed limit & disregarding the trail's norms of behavior. at those speeds, they should be on on the roadway. let them see if they can get away w/ their BS out there
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Old 09-24-21, 10:39 AM
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Darwin can be slow, but he will find them. Hopefully, before they breed.
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Old 09-24-21, 06:28 PM
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When I am approaching another person who is walking or riding a bicycle on a path or shoulder of a road on my bicycle. I steer clear or communicate with them ahead of time. It has become apparent in the last few months that many people on ebikes are clueless to this or they have a Deathwish. We may not be able to cure stupid but we can sedate it.
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Old 09-26-21, 07:55 AM
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IMO you are partly to blame for not letting the other rider pass.
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Old 09-26-21, 08:01 AM
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Nope. The overtaking rider has the responsibility for a clean pass. The rider being passed has no responsibility other than holding his line.
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Old 09-26-21, 08:02 AM
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Signs are worthless. I have to dodge them on most days. Also dogs on one side of the trail with the owner on the other side. Groups of walkers four abreast.


Last edited by Frank S; 09-26-21 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 09-26-21, 08:23 AM
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Some of the ebikes have very wide handlebars. They like to stop in the middle of the path and gawk or consult their phones. Usually in pairs. So it’s off into the grass to safely pass. Bear spray may be an option.
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Old 09-26-21, 08:35 AM
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There is a showdown building in Tucson.
Our 100 mile "Loop" is clearly marked no motorized vehicles. But people buy a 1k+ e-bike and think it came with a ticket to the Loop. It did not.
I only frequent a small 10-15 mile section on a regular basis and I've seen bloody accidents and screaming matches.
Two things about it get my goat.
E-bike buyers denying that e-bikes are motorized vehicles
Fat and otherwise completely out of shape people buying an e-bike and now they consider themselves the up and coming TDF class.

E-bike popularity with the couch class will EXPAND the available sizes for spank-dex though.

Last edited by macstuff; 09-26-21 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 09-26-21, 08:50 AM
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The fisherman around here discovered crappy bikes…then they discovered better bikes…they have now discovered e-bike!
They have a tendency torwards, “grouping”…a lot of times their wives can now tag along…add poles, tag-alongs for your fishing equipment and your picnic equipment, etc.
Maybe just a hint of mob mentality…
They ride/rode to go fishing…they started to also realize some of the reasons people enjoy good, better bikes…showing some pride in their rides, too!
They would sometimes not even get their lines wet!
Oh, well…it’ll all shake out…they have contend with themselves, too…

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Old 09-26-21, 10:31 AM
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It's common courtesy that slow moving traffic should yield.
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Old 09-26-21, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank S View Post
Signs are worthless. I have to dodge them on most days. Also dogs on one side of the trail with the owner on the other side. Groups of walkers four abreast.
And yet, around here, a lady was posting on NextDoor about how all cyclists who ride on the road should be forced to submit to some sort of mental sanity test because why would they be doing something so dangerous (that is also inconvenient to her). The world would be better without people in it.
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Old 09-27-21, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by macstuff View Post
There is a showdown building in Tucson.
Our 100 mile "Loop" is clearly marked no motorized vehicles. But people buy a 1k+ e-bike and think it came with a ticket to the Loop. It did not.
I only frequent a small 10-15 mile section on a regular basis and I've seen bloody accidents and screaming matches.
Two things about it get my goat.
E-bike buyers denying that e-bikes are motorized vehicles
Fat and otherwise completely out of shape people buying an e-bike and now they consider themselves the up and coming TDF class.

E-bike popularity with the couch class will EXPAND the available sizes for spank-dex though.
MN state statutes define what is a legal ebike. If it meets the statute it is considered the same as a bicycle, not a motorized vehicle. So my 500w bike with a speed limiter setting of 20mph is totally legal wherever bikes are allowed, unless there is some local or site restriction.


Minnesota Statute 169.011, Subdivision 27:
“Electric-assisted bicycle” means a bicycle with two or three wheels that:
(1) has a saddle and fully operable pedals for human propulsion;
(2) meets the requirements:
(i) of federal motor vehicle safety standards for a motor-driven cycle in Code of
Federal Regulations, title 49, sections 571.1 et seq.; or
(ii) for bicycles under Code of Federal Regulations, title 16, part 1512, or successor
requirements; and
(3) has an electric motor that (i) has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts, (ii)
is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, (iii) is
incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power alone is used
to propel the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour, and (iv) disengages or
ceases to function when the vehicle’s brakes are applied.
Minnesota Statute 169.011, Subdivision 47:
An electric-assisted bicycle with pedals and a motor that can’t go faster than 20 mph is
considered a bicycle under state law; all relevant bicycle laws apply.
Minnesota Statute 169.222, Subdivision 6(b)
The driver of an electric-assisted bicycle must be at least 15 years old.
Minnesota Statute 85.015, Subdivision 1(d) and Statute 85.018, Subdivision 2(d):
Generally electric-assisted bicycles may operate like bicycles do, unless otherwise posted.
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Old 09-27-21, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Nope. The overtaking rider has the responsibility for a clean pass. The rider being passed has no responsibility other than holding his line.

Also, overtaking rider should never attempt a pass around a blind corner. The person being passed has no safe strategy to deal with the possibility of people swerving to avoid the head on.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Also, overtaking rider should never attempt a pass around a blind corner. The person being passed has no safe strategy to deal with the possibility of people swerving to avoid the head on.
Not true. The person being passed can move over and slow down when it is safe for the other rider to pass.
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Old 09-28-21, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
And yet, around here, a lady was posting on NextDoor about how all cyclists who ride on the road should be forced to submit to some sort of mental sanity test because why would they be doing something so dangerous (that is also inconvenient to her). The world would be better without people in it.
I've biked across the USA five times, self contained. That's a lot of road miles. And I gotta agree it's a crazy thing to do and I did my long tours in the early 90s before everyone used a monster truck for a family car. Dual wheel pickups were a rarity. Lanes have not widened and now vehicles take up every inch. Yep. Crazy fo sho.
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Old 09-28-21, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by macstuff View Post
There is a showdown building in Tucson.
Our 100 mile "Loop" is clearly marked no motorized vehicles. But people buy a 1k+ e-bike and think it came with a ticket to the Loop. It did not.
I only frequent a small 10-15 mile section on a regular basis and I've seen bloody accidents and screaming matches.
Two things about it get my goat.
E-bike buyers denying that e-bikes are motorized vehicles
Fat and otherwise completely out of shape people buying an e-bike and now they consider themselves the up and coming TDF class.

E-bike popularity with the couch class will EXPAND the available sizes for spank-dex though.
Doesn’t Arizona state law generally allow e-bikes to use all bike lanes and bike paths? Does Tucson have a separate ordinance regarding e-bikes and bike paths?
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Old 09-28-21, 08:09 PM
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Most states exempt electric bikes from the motorized classification. Personally I think these electric bikes will be more helpful to our sport as these people will want more bike lanes and they increase our visibility as a group. However we do need to teach these people cycling manners. Possibly getting the bike stores to provide some training to the buyers would be helpful..
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Old 09-28-21, 08:19 PM
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I don't know what the rules are behind the official county made signs at every access that read "No Motorized Vehicles."
But I do know it is situational common sense.
The loop is a Pedestrian use path as well as a bicycle path.
No Motor driven vehicles covers internal combustion motors and electric motors. no matter if they are on a go cart or bicycle or scooter.
The policy conforms with the general rules of the road with pedestrians getting the ultimate right of way.
The Loop is not a transportation avenue it is a recreation feature, there are more people walking on it than riding. Its plain dangerous for even the packs of wannabe race boys that scoot around the path faster than 15mph. Blind curves, dogs, leashes, cell phones. Semi-pro bike pilots, recreational cyclists and people teetering around counting calories and groups of ladies dressed brightly walking fast and only paying attention to the point they are trying to make in the discussion.
It only makes sense to keep high speed vehicles out of this mix.
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Old 09-28-21, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by MNebiker View Post
(ii) is incapable of propelling the vehicle at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour
Thanks for posting the MN statute. I didn't know about the 20mph limit. I joined a recreational cycling club this year and many of the lower rated rides (they are rated according to the expected average speed) have e-bikers. Of course, the main purpose of the club rides is to ride together so the e-bikers ride the pace of the group (usually 12-14mph average) and are not a problem at all. But I've heard some of the e-bikers talk about how their e-bike can go 28mph.
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Old 09-28-21, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by N2deep View Post
Most states exempt electric bikes from the motorized classification. Personally I think these electric bikes will be more helpful to our sport as these people will want more bike lanes and they increase our visibility as a group. However we do need to teach these people cycling manners. Possibly getting the bike stores to provide some training to the buyers would be helpful..
I don't think that "most states exempt e-bikes from motorized classification." I'd have to see proof of that. Its counter intuitive. And I doubt that many States have even considered it yet. When the lawsuits become too much there will be an official look taken I'm sure.
These aren't bicycles though. The people that buy and use these are motivated by different circumstance than the bicyclists.
When you strap a motor to a bicycle it is a moped. It doesn't matter what it looks like or sounds like or smells like. Its a moped. It becomes a motor driven vehicle, it becomes more of a challenge to control.
There are electric trials motorcycles and there will be electric BMX and mountain and other types of off road biking, but an e-bike is a mo-ped and falls under all the rules we already have for mo-peds.
Mo-Peds can't use the bike lanes in Arizona, that I know. No motorized vehicles in the bike lanes.
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Old 09-28-21, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Gonzo Bob View Post
Thanks for posting the MN statute. I didn't know about the 20mph limit. I joined a recreational cycling club this year and many of the lower rated rides (they are rated according to the expected average speed) have e-bikers. Of course, the main purpose of the club rides is to ride together so the e-bikers ride the pace of the group (usually 12-14mph average) and are not a problem at all. But I've heard some of the e-bikers talk about how their e-bike can go 28mph.
28mph? Thats pretty slow if we're talking e-bikes, average at low wattage probably. I have a friend with a 1000w kit front wheel motor on a Schwinn tricycle and it will smoke the tire. It's too fast for the frame, he steps off the throttle at 35mph and its still going.
Everything is all about power and soon there won't be an e-bike sold that is less than 750w. A 750w e-bike will haul ass. And many are using gearing also.
Personally I think we are in for a world of hurt. Street versions of e-bikes may end up having been a fad after the insurance and legal issues are wrung out.
The ramifications of e-bikes are wide spread. If they were used as transportation rather than a personal display, our society could move in a more two-wheeled direction ++. But they would have to be integrated into society and thought of as another piece of transportation. I don't think that is going to happen easily because the e-bike entered the situation at a price point that encourages class separation. It is already being used as a status trinket.
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Old 09-28-21, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by macstuff View Post
28mph? Thats pretty slow if we're talking e-bikes.
I don't know e-bikes but I don't doubt that. I think the 28mph "brag" I overheard was for an extended distance like 20-30 miles. But my point was not that 28mph is amazingly fast. It is that it exceeds the MN statute for e-bikes.
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