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Warning N. CA East Bay Mtb'ers!

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Warning N. CA East Bay Mtb'ers!

Old 03-06-22, 06:56 PM
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LV2TNDM
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Warning N. CA East Bay Mtb'ers!

Just heard that MAJOR illegal riding enforcement is happening on East Bay Municipal Utility District land in Oakland/Moraga. It concerns the illegal trail that drops off East Ridge Trail in Redwood Regional Park, into EBMUD and to Pinehurst Rd.

The rider in question had just lifted his bike over the barbed wire fence at the bottom when a cop emerged from behind a tree and cited him. $600!!!! First offense. Cop said a second offense means arrest, going to jail, charged with a misdemeanor, a higher fine and confiscation of your bike. Not sure if this means seizure.

Anyway, we need to OVERWHELM the EBRPD and EBMUD phone lines with complaints about this COMPLETE overreach of authority. This is excessive law enforcement. And I admit, we shouldn't be building unsanctioned trails. It obviously hurts our cause. I get this. I've never done it and don't plan on it. I've criticized YouTubers who post videos of kids advocating for and using illegally-built trails. I've been in the game long enough to get this. BUT, I also understand the urge to do it and why it happens. We've been marginalized for long enough. And yes, I'll add that I also concede that this is a relatively "minor" first-world problem. Our country has so many other more important, crucial and high-priority causes to address. But that doesn't mean we can't do both, or more, right?

Hiding behind trees in the woods? $600 fines? Wow, talk about misappropriation of very limited law enforcement resources!

EBMUD:
https://www.ebmud.com/contact-us/
customerservice@ebmud.com or call 1-866-403-2683.

EBRPD:
https://www.ebparks.org/contact
Receptionist: General Questions - 1-888-327-2757
EBRPD Public Safety Headquarters: Non-Emergency Business (510) 881-1833
Email Form: https://www.ebparks.org/contact/form

And since when did the public give EBMUD exclusive right to treat their lands like a fiefdom? I'm disappointed that these "Protected Watershed" lands have been kept off limits from the public for ever. All while they let ranchers graze their livestock in the same places. Cows crapping in our watershed, but god forbid a hiker or worse, A BICYCLE!, tread on this rarefied earth!!! But lots of cows! (At least there used to be.) Not very protected, if you ask me!

Please also speak with your dollars! Join Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay to help fund the effort to make the badly needed change to land access:
https://btceb.org/
(BTW, CAMTB is running a drawing right now, so if you follow BTCEB's link, you can use your membership dollars to enter their raffle to win a Canyon Specral 125 CF 7. Hey, wait, I'm gonna dilute my raffle ticket chances by promoting this! Too bad!!!)

Please call or email EBMUD and EBRPD this week to complain. Thanks.
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Old 03-06-22, 09:08 PM
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How about this? Don't break the law. If you do, don't whine about being caught and punished. Don't like the law? Work to get it changed. (mic drop)
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Old 03-06-22, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
How about this? Don't break the law. If you do, don't whine about being caught and punished. Don't like the law? Work to get it changed. (mic drop)
Yes, work to get it changed. But we're a nation with far too many stupid and ridiculous laws, some of them deserving no more consideration than saying **** it. 600.00 fine is a gross overreach. Unfortunately I think too much of what's wrong with this nation isn't the people who break the laws but the absurd number of laws there are too break and too many people with your view.

Last edited by Siu Blue Wind; 03-07-22 at 04:58 PM. Reason: dont' go around censor
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Old 03-07-22, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Just heard that MAJOR illegal riding enforcement is happening on East Bay Municipal Utility District land in Oakland/Moraga. It concerns the illegal trail that drops off East Ridge Trail in Redwood Regional Park, into EBMUD and to Pinehurst Rd.

The rider in question had just lifted his bike over the barbed wire fence at the bottom when a cop emerged from behind a tree and cited him. $600!!!! First offense. Cop said a second offense means arrest, going to jail, charged with a misdemeanor, a higher fine and confiscation of your bike. Not sure if this means seizure.

Anyway, we need to OVERWHELM the EBRPD and EBMUD phone lines with complaints about this COMPLETE overreach of authority. This is excessive law enforcement. And I admit, we shouldn't be building unsanctioned trails. It obviously hurts our cause. I get this. I've never done it and don't plan on it. I've criticized YouTubers who post videos of kids advocating for and using illegally-built trails. I've been in the game long enough to get this. BUT, I also understand the urge to do it and why it happens. We've been marginalized for long enough. And yes, I'll add that I also concede that this is a relatively "minor" first-world problem. Our country has so many other more important, crucial and high-priority causes to address. But that doesn't mean we can't do both, or more, right?

Hiding behind trees in the woods? $600 fines? Wow, talk about misappropriation of very limited law enforcement resources!

EBMUD:
https://www.ebmud.com/contact-us/
customerservice@ebmud.com or call 1-866-403-2683.

EBRPD:
https://www.ebparks.org/contact
Receptionist: General Questions - 1-888-327-2757
EBRPD Public Safety Headquarters: Non-Emergency Business (510) 881-1833
Email Form: https://www.ebparks.org/contact/form

And since when did the public give EBMUD exclusive right to treat their lands like a fiefdom? I'm disappointed that these "Protected Watershed" lands have been kept off limits from the public for ever. All while they let ranchers graze their livestock in the same places. Cows crapping in our watershed, but god forbid a hiker or worse, A BICYCLE!, tread on this rarefied earth!!! But lots of cows! (At least there used to be.) Not very protected, if you ask me!

Please also speak with your dollars! Join Bicycle Trails Council of the East Bay to help fund the effort to make the badly needed change to land access:
https://btceb.org/
(BTW, CAMTB is running a drawing right now, so if you follow BTCEB's link, you can use your membership dollars to enter their raffle to win a Canyon Specral 125 CF 7. Hey, wait, I'm gonna dilute my raffle ticket chances by promoting this! Too bad!!!)

Please call or email EBMUD and EBRPD this week to complain. Thanks.
how is it an overreach of authority? ebmud has state given authority to manage the watershed. their stated priorities are water quality (1.4 million people drink it) and habitat preservation. thereís a process for changing the uses on this land, and over the years theyíve made various changes, including opening up some trails. some are described in the latest watershed master plan update:

https://www.ebmud.com/recreation/eas...r-plan-update/

there is also a legal process to petition MUD boards to change things. lifting your bicycle over a barbed wire fence and riding illegally on land which is dedicated as a watershed for millions of people is not part of that process!

$600 does seem a little excessive, but climbing a barbed wire fence to ride a trail when there are hundreds of miles of LEGAL trails on public land? selfish and uncool, the kind of behavior that makes people hate cyclists.
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Old 03-07-22, 12:20 AM
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Relax. It is in California dollars, which are nearly worthless. That is like two trips to the grocery store. Besides, real law enforcement can get dangerous.

Having said that, the cop doesn't choose the fine.
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Old 03-07-22, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Yes, work to get it changed. But we're a nation with far too many stupid and ridiculous laws, some of them deserving no more consideration than saying **** it. 600.00 fine is a gross overreach. Unfortunately I think too much of what's wrong with this nation isn't the people who break the laws but the absurd number of laws there are too break and too many people with your view.
By that you're referring to those citizens, such as myself, who do their best to obey the laws?

Hopefully, you will never encounter a person of your view who believes there are far too many stupid and ridiculous laws, and give them no more consideration that saying f@#k it. You know, like the laws that allow cyclists the right to be on the road and make me slow down in my 400HP, 6,000 lb monster SUV.

Last edited by Bald Paul; 03-07-22 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 03-07-22, 08:01 AM
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Screw that. If you engage in activity you know is going to cause illegal environmental damage, a $600 fine seems pretty minimal. If someone isn't deterred by barbed wire and repeated warnings and any sense of personal responsibility for the environment, friggin' throw some kind of book at them.

And going to the waste of enforcement resources argument, if they get $600 for each stop, this could be very profitable enforcement activity, funding other sorts of enforcement--it could actually increase enforcement resources. And who the hell are you to determine that this is a waste of enforcement resources? The existence of a trail where one shouldn't be is already significant damage, if they can't stop its further use, they will not be able to stop that damage from getting worse, let alone repairing it.
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Old 03-07-22, 08:11 AM
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Break the law, get caught, take your lumps. But don't cry about it.
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Old 03-07-22, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Break the law, get caught, take your lumps. But don't cry about it.

I really think the OP is a misfired attempt to paint MTBers who don't respect environmental laws as victims. Question for the OP: How exactly does your desire for more places to ride trump concerns with watershed and habitat preservation?
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Old 03-07-22, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I really think the OP is a misfired attempt to paint MTBers who don't respect environmental laws as victims. Question for the OP: How exactly does your desire for more places to ride trump concerns with watershed and habitat preservation?
I think you're 100% right.
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Old 03-07-22, 11:34 AM
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You know what they say: Don't do the crime if you don't like the fine.

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Old 03-07-22, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
You know what they say: Don't do the crime if you don't like the fine.
I just simultaneously posted the same thing (apart from the pic) in one of his other, identical threads.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:23 PM
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And as I said, I totally agree with "don't do the crime if you can't do the time." But again, one tenet of our judicial system is that punishment should fit the crime. And this is excessive in my opinion and I think many would agree with me.

And EBMUD has restricted access to this "pristine watershed" while allowing cattle grazing. Cattle carry ecoli and are responsible for many of our ecoli food contamination issues in our food supply. If you REALLY want to preserve a watershed, you don't allow ecoli vectors depositing fecal matter everywhere! That said, let's not pretend EBMUD lands are anything resembling "pristine." They're lands that have been homesteaded, tilled, mined, logged, dredged, and otherwise manipulated for human consumption. Allowing bicycles to ride through their lands has virtually ZERO impact on the watershed. Saying otherwise is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

That said, I agree with the sentiments that we must pursue change through legal channels. And this is why I suggest you contact the agencies listed to question their priorities.

I also write this as a mountain biker who has been riding since the beginning. Although I wasn't officially "mountain biking" in the mid '70's, I was riding the dirt in my hometown - just on a BMX bike. Then in the 80's, trails started getting closed. This new sport was unknown, scary, and a "danger" to the public, so land managers went into this group-think, knee-jerk reaction stance and simply imposed blanket restrictions. State Parks are STILL VERY anti bicycle. Most parks say, "ALL vehicles (including bicycles) must STAY ON PAVEMENT and may not ride on dirt." This is beyond absurd. But in the mid '80's, the sport was new and no one knew anything about it. I get this and can give them some slack. No one knew the impact bikes would have.

But this "new" sport proved it wasn't "dangerous," or "environmentally destructive," or "impossible to integrate into public lands." It's a great sport and cyclists can easily and safely co-exist with other park users. Then the sport morphed into a worldwide sensation! It is a fully established sport endorsed by the UCI and Olympics. In other words, we shouldn't have to beg for access. And with the popularity of Middle and High School mountain biking programs, we need our public agencies and land managers to EMBRACE cycling, not discourage it.

So it is with this mindset that I presented this issue.

And as an Oakland resident exposed to all sorts of property theft and violent crime, I find it absurd that cops are waiting behind trees in the woods while grand theft, assault, battery and gun crime continue in my city not a stone's throw away from my front door. Let's get our priorities straight, shall we?

PS I'll add that not two days prior to posting this, I was assaulted by a driver as I finished a nice 3-hour ride. Simply waiting to make a left turn, a driver was incensed that I would have the temerity to ride within traffic! Even got out of his car to confront me. He backed down when he realized I wasn't some wimp who was going to cower to his attempted intimidation. So while drivers are out there behaving like lunatics and endangering the public, cops are busting bike riders. Sorry, that's beyond absurd.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:39 PM
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Work to get the law changed through established channels. Hounding bureaucrats and imploring that we collectively launch a DOS attack on their website isn't the way to do this.

BTW, it is E. coli (E. is short for Eschericia). It is not a "vector." It is a bacterium that is common to all mammals. It is about 50% by mass the contents of your intestines, which is a lot, given that you are completely full of shyte.

Laws are there for a reason. If you disagree with the reason, there are mechanisms to have the laws changed. You don't get the option of simply disregarding them with impunity, just because you don't happen to like them.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:57 PM
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If what they're engaged in is in part habitat preservation and erosion control, I don't think you're in a position to make those fairly complex environmental priority calls. And BTW, it's absolutely impossible to E. coli-proof a watershed, that's why they filter drinking water. You'd have to render the area free of animal life.
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Old 03-07-22, 04:03 PM
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But cows!

Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
BTW, it is E. coli (E. is short for Eschericia). It is not a "vector." It is a bacterium that is common to all mammals.
Of course. But then, that's exactly what the person you are responding to said:

Originally Posted by LV2TNDM
Cattle carry ecoli ... If you REALLY want to preserve a watershed, you don't allow ecoli vectors depositing fecal matter everywhere!

The vectors are the cows. The potential pathogen they are a vector for is e.coli. And um, other s***t.

Anyway, back in the land of reality, watershed management is a numbers game. Of course managers are trying to exert control and reduce the volume of potential contamination - and particularly where there are legacy uses, they try to see that those decrease rather than increase with time.

Near me, there's some great riding through our own drinking water supply - on the established roads (paved and unpaved, but notably even the unpaved ones are real roads that get plowed). I'm sure the city's water management team would prefer those roads weren't there, but they are, as are some private lands with trails. So they concentrate on prohibiting use of the public lands beyond the roads, on filtering the drainage of the main road, and on worrying about its safety, because a serious car crash would put the contents of the tank in the reservoir.

You also get the irony of walking path trailhead signs both prohibiting dogs and providing doggie bags.
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Old 03-07-22, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
But cows!



Of course. But then, that's exactly what the person you are responding to said:


The vectors are the cows. .
Sorry!

You are right. I was reading it wrong.

However, the humans are also potential vectors. (These are mountain bikers!)
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Old 03-07-22, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
ÖThey're lands that have been homesteaded, tilled, mined, logged, dredged, and otherwise manipulated for human consumption. Allowing bicycles to ride through their lands has virtually ZERO impact on the watershed. Saying otherwise is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.
Ö.
iím not sure which lands are really in question here, but it seems to me that EBMUD is actually going through a reasonable process of studying this issue and opening/building additional trails through their land. (see excerpts below). of course it takes a long time, which is too bad, but simply breaking the rules in the meantime isnít the answer.

as for it being disingenuous to suggest that thereís any environmental consideration, i disagree. itís likely fine to add a few thousand bikers to a trail, but it ought to be considered by someone who knows more about it than you or i. bikes run over things repeatedly in lines, they go places cows donít, and they bring with them stuff stuck to their frames and tires from hundreds of miles away, which cows generally do not.

it would be very interesting to know the terms of the leases EBMUD gives for grazing, but i would not be at all surprised to learn that some form or right to it goes back to long before this land was watershed and parkland, given that the original european use (when they kicked out the ohlone) was largely ranching.






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Old 03-07-22, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Work to get the law changed through established channels. Hounding bureaucrats and imploring that we collectively launch a DOS attack on their website isn't the way to do this.

BTW, it is E. coli (E. is short for Eschericia). It is not a "vector." It is a bacterium that is common to all mammals. It is about 50% by mass the contents of your intestines, which is a lot, given that you are completely full of shyte.

Laws are there for a reason. If you disagree with the reason, there are mechanisms to have the laws changed. You don't get the option of simply disregarding them with impunity, just because you don't happen to like them.
Why would the public not be able to avail itself to the "Contact Us" portals these agencies provide? This is EXACTLY what they're there for. And this enforcement action may be the result of the very same process by hikers.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I clearly imply that the CATTLE are the vectors for E. coli. You think you need to explain the basics of this bacterium to me? Nope, not necessary. Jesus, talk about obsessing on the irrelevant, getting it wrong, and then going on a rant! E. coli strains are a huge concern in our food supply. E. coli O157:H7 being one of those that causes serious illness and mortality. Thanks, but no thanks for the inane lecture(s).

Who said the watershed should be made "E. coli proof?" Not I. There's a HUGE difference between preserving a watershed and allowing cattle to graze. Have you seen what cattle do? I've been riding lately in a cattle grazing location and they literally spew feces all over the ground in large quantities and all over the trail. While it's good practice for avoiding trail mines and bunny hopping obstacles, it's pretty absurd how much of it is on the trail. So when I think of "watershed preservation," allowing cattle everywhere is probably the LAST thing that would come to mind. (But at the same time, I appreciate the history of cattle grazing in the west and that it's by no means uncomplicated and a political football with generations of ranchers behind it.)

Again, hilarious how a responder had to mention the presence of E. coli in the human gut. Thanks. Already knew that. But I have YET to encounter human feces on any of the trails splattered with cow pies. Dog crap, I've gotten on my tires MANY times, but not human. Most mountain bikers, if they have to defecate while on a ride, will do so in a discrete location and I'd guess at least half will follow proper "how to poop in the woods" protocol. Not many will "drop trou" right in the middle of the trail! But cows sure do! So in other words, allowing cyclists to ride in the watershed isn't going to introduce a human waste problem. It hasn't on the peninsula where cyclists have been riding within SF's Hetch Hetchy watershed/storage lands for decades..

And again, reading comprehension. I stated clearly in my OP that I do not support the building and use of illegal trails. It's all right there. And this is why I'm encouraging everyone interested in the matter to PURSUE CHANGE THROUGH ESTABLISHED CHANNELS! Contact the agencies in question and express your displeasure. THEN I recommend people support the efforts of BTCEB. See how that works? That's EXACTLY how you enact change with the democratic process.

Please, everyone just slow down and re-read my original post. And if you disagree with my premise, then fine. But lecturing me on E. coli is rather presumptuous and silly. Of peripheral concern, but is of no relevance to the fact that cattle are legally allowed to graze in a "protected watershed." And that's just one minor aspect of the issue. To state that bicycles are some existential threat to a watershed is specious. I'd kick out the cattle and welcome bicycles with open arms if I were making the decision.
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Old 03-07-22, 04:46 PM
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if i was making the decisions, iíd kick out the cattle too. theyíre a huge environmental impact/blight. but then again, thatís would be my choice, and itís why i donít eat meat. i assume you donít either.

but seriously Ö. do they really graze cattle on the forested downslope between reinhardt redwood park and pinehurst? those would be some badass cattle.


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Old 03-07-22, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Why would the public not be able to avail itself to the "Contact Us" portals these agencies provide? This is EXACTLY what they're there for. And this enforcement action may be the result of the very same process by hikers.

You need to work on your reading comprehension. I clearly imply that the CATTLE are the vectors for E. coli. You think you need to explain the basics of this bacterium to me? Nope, not necessary. Jesus, talk about obsessing on the irrelevant, getting it wrong, and then going on a rant! E. coli strains are a huge concern in our food supply. E. coli O157:H7 being one of those that causes serious illness and mortality. Thanks, but no thanks for the inane lecture(s).

Who said the watershed should be made "E. coli proof?" Not I. There's a HUGE difference between preserving a watershed and allowing cattle to graze. Have you seen what cattle do? I've been riding lately in a cattle grazing location and they literally spew feces all over the ground in large quantities and all over the trail. While it's good practice for avoiding trail mines and bunny hopping obstacles, it's pretty absurd how much of it is on the trail. So when I think of "watershed preservation," allowing cattle everywhere is probably the LAST thing that would come to mind. (But at the same time, I appreciate the history of cattle grazing in the west and that it's by no means uncomplicated and a political football with generations of ranchers behind it.)

Again, hilarious how a responder had to mention the presence of E. coli in the human gut. Thanks. Already knew that. But I have YET to encounter human feces on any of the trails splattered with cow pies. Dog crap, I've gotten on my tires MANY times, but not human. Most mountain bikers, if they have to defecate while on a ride, will do so in a discrete location and I'd guess at least half will follow proper "how to poop in the woods" protocol. Not many will "drop trou" right in the middle of the trail! But cows sure do! So in other words, allowing cyclists to ride in the watershed isn't going to introduce a human waste problem. It hasn't on the peninsula where cyclists have been riding within SF's Hetch Hetchy watershed/storage lands for decades..

And again, reading comprehension. I stated clearly in my OP that I do not support the building and use of illegal trails. It's all right there. And this is why I'm encouraging everyone interested in the matter to PURSUE CHANGE THROUGH ESTABLISHED CHANNELS! Contact the agencies in question and express your displeasure. THEN I recommend people support the efforts of BTCEB. See how that works? That's EXACTLY how you enact change with the democratic process.

Please, everyone just slow down and re-read my original post. And if you disagree with my premise, then fine. But lecturing me on E. coli is rather presumptuous and silly. Of peripheral concern, but is of no relevance to the fact that cattle are legally allowed to graze in a "protected watershed." And that's just one minor aspect of the issue. To state that bicycles are some existential threat to a watershed is specious. I'd kick out the cattle and welcome bicycles with open arms if I were making the decision.

Absolutely none of what you write sounds like you have a clue about watershed and habitat protection, and this reads like the pleadings of a member of a special interest group. Ride somewhere else, bfd.

And you're the one who brought up E. coli, obviously ignoring the fact that a healthy ecosystem is quite likely rampant with the stuff.

Last edited by livedarklions; 03-07-22 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 03-07-22, 05:02 PM
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Siu Blue Wind
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OH lordt.
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Originally Posted by making View Post
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 03-07-22, 05:07 PM
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You know.. What's wrong with doing the right thing?

Should have been a higher fine. I'll bring this up at the next meeting with them and I'll forward this to EBRP Thanks for your rant.
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Originally Posted by making View Post
Please dont outsmart the censor. That is a very expensive censor and every time one of you guys outsmart it it makes someone at the home office feel bad. We dont wanna do that. So dont cleverly disguise bad words.
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Old 03-07-22, 05:34 PM
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Polaris OBark
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
Please, everyone just slow down and re-read my original post.
Ok

Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
we need to OVERWHELM the EBRPD and EBMUD phone lines

I stand not corrected.
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Old 03-07-22, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
... It hasn't on the peninsula where cyclists have been riding within SF's Hetch Hetchy watershed/storage lands for decades..
i'm kind of confused by whatever you're saying here. hetch hetchy is hundreds of miles away from the peninsula, and from any large population centers. SF's peninsula watershed is in fact generally closed to biking and hiking, which is in and of itself a huge controversy. people have been trying to get it opened up for years, with similar concerns voiced by the SF PUC about water quality, erosion, habitat preservation, etc. here's the land on the peninsula that you seem to be suggesting people have been riding on for decades:





this ride would be possible if they "just opened" those two gates!!

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