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Bicycles Combat Climate Chance

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Bicycles Combat Climate Chance

Old 03-22-22, 11:49 AM
  #26  
UniChris
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ordered all citizens to buy bikes.”

A bike that's not actually getting used (and to actually displace car trips, rather than just for enjoyment) isn't really a win, since it requires substantial resources to manufacture.

Therefore mandatory bike ownership is not a sound policy, because ownership does not mean usership.

What is sound policy is having the cost of using a private motor vehicle be high, investing in the cleaner and more efficient forms of powered public transit, requiring employers and landlords to offer secure indoor bike parking, and maintaining the streetscape in a way that actually improves cycling experience (which sadly, is often not how bike improvement money is getting spent)

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Old 03-22-22, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
A bike that's not actually getting used (and to actually displace car trips, rather than just for enjoyment) isn't really a win, since it requires substantial resources to manufacture.

Therefore mandatory bike ownership is not a sound policy, because ownership does not mean usership.

What is sound policy is having the cost of using a private motor vehicle be high, investing in the cleaner and more efficient forms of powered public transit, requiring employers and landlords to offer secure indoor bike parking, and maintaining the streetscape in a way that actually improves cycling experience (which sadly, is often not how bike improvement money is getting spent)
Still, you are always more likely to ride a bike if you own one, even if you do not use it...
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Old 03-22-22, 12:15 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by flangehead View Post
No more support than “everyone has to have a car”.
Your symmetrical argument implies you think that owning a car can save the climate..
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Old 03-22-22, 12:17 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
Still, you are always more likely to ride a bike if you own one, even if you do not use it...
That's not the useful question. The useful question is if a given bike purchase is going to displace enough car kilometers to redeem the resources captured in its manufacture.

Consider in the US, likely only one in 50 owned bicycles gets used to displace any meaningful number of car trips. Most just clutter up garages, with most of the fraction that do get ridden getting ridden more for adult fitness or childhood play than commuting or shopping.

I'd guess that the usage rate in many less car centric countries is going to be higher. But it's still likely not high enough to make mandatory whole population ownership a net climate win.

The way you get bike usership is by making it attractive and making personal vehicle usage unattractive.

Not by mandating that everyone possess a neglected, resource intensive, soon to be rustbucket.

If an authoritarian government wanted to do things that were actually useful, they'd make the trains and buses free (but that would cost government money) and have high fees on car use (but that would hit their power base). Mandating that every person buy a bike is counterproductive but easily looks attractive as misuse of authority since it's an unfunded mandate - the cost falls on the powerless, while the wealthy who do own cars will just buy cheap bikes to store, or not even bother and just pay the fine if they can't influence their way out of being subject to enforcement at all.

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Old 03-22-22, 12:50 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
That's not the useful question. The useful question is if a given bike purchase is going to displace enough car kilometers to redeem the resources captured in its manufacture.

Consider in the US, likely only one in 50 owned bicycles gets used to displace any meaningful number of car trips. Most just clutter up garages, with most of the fraction that do get ridden getting ridden more for adult fitness or childhood play than commuting or shopping.

I'd guess that the usage rate in many less car centric countries is going to be higher. But it's still likely not high enough to make mandatory whole population ownership a net climate win.

The way you get bike usership is by making it attractive and making personal vehicle usage unattractive.

Not by mandating that everyone possess a neglected, resource intensive, soon to be rustbucket.

If an authoritarian government wanted to do things that were actually useful, they'd make the trains and buses free (but that would cost government money) and have high fees on car use (but that would hit their power base). Mandating that every person buy a bike is counterproductive but easily looks attractive as misuse of authority since it's an unfunded mandate - the cost falls on the powerless, while the wealthy who do own cars will just buy cheap bikes to store, or not even bother and just pay the fine if they can't influence their way out of being subject to enforcement at all.
it deploys a solid foundation, though, for enacting further measures, such as those you mentioned.
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Old 03-22-22, 03:58 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by holytrousers View Post
it deploys a solid foundation, though, for enacting further measures, such as those you mentioned.
No, requiring the manufacture of bikes that won't be used is absurdly wasteful, and so counterproductive from a climate perspective. You remember all the pictures of mountains of trashed share bikes in China? Actually going through with this would be the same, only instead of mountains in one place they'd be cluttering up and rusting away in hallways and yards and alleys and ravines all over the country.

Requiring bike ownership on the part of an entire population is just stupidly counterproductive.

Making bike and transit ridership more attractive than driving is what actually works - and you don't have to mandate bike ownership to do that, you just have to make driving expensive to a degree consistent with its climate cost, buildout and subsidize public transit, make road conditions cycling friendly, and make solid basic bikes inexpensive to acquire.

Mandating bike ownership is the sort of stupidity that only looks good to someone who wants to appear to be doing something, while not impacting the lifestyle of their wealthy supporters, pushing the cost onto others, and not caring that they are wasting the very sorts of material and energy resources that are at issue in climate and environmental concerns.

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Old 03-23-22, 01:44 PM
  #32  
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I have no idea why this thread is allowed as it involves politics which I have been told is forbidden on these forums.
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Old 03-23-22, 01:51 PM
  #33  
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I can speak about climate change from the scientific and human nature perspective and totally leave out the politics.
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Old 03-23-22, 02:29 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Climate change is real. But not man made climate change. Man the world over produces 40 Billion tons of CO2 per year. The weight of the earths total atmosphere is 5.5 quadrillion tons. Divide 5.5 quadrillion tons into 40 billion tons, and you get 7 parts in a million. I submit that 7 part in a million is not something to ruin our standard of living or our economy over.

Like you're credible to make that judgment? Wanna be constructive? Figure out how to reduce emissions without ruining our standard of living or our economy. If the climate keeps going this way, we aren't going to be able to maintain either.

Are you denying that CO2 levels have gone up significantly in the last century?

You're entitled to your own opinions, you're not entitled to your own facts, and this is total bs.




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Old 03-23-22, 02:34 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by 10 Wheels View Post
Think about This Pic.

That's just stupid. The entire climate is contained under that arrow, are you claiming that factors localized to our planet don't affect how much of the sun's energy gets stored here?. Yes, if the sun got more or less powerful, it could swamp localized factors, but climate change is a marginal change in heat storage that we as a species are perfectly capable of accomplishing. We're talking billions of "tiny specks" emitting far more than their body weight in greenhouse gases.

The "is manmade climate change real" question really isn't debatable at this point, it's very obviously already happening.

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Old 03-23-22, 03:13 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
Climate change is real. But not man made climate change. Man the world over produces 40 Billion tons of CO2 per year. The weight of the earths total atmosphere is 5.5 quadrillion tons. Divide 5.5 quadrillion tons into 40 billion tons, and you get 7 parts in a million. I submit that 7 part in a million is not something to ruin our standard of living or our economy over.
You must be very concerned about this, then, since the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is currently well over 400 parts per million:

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...carbon-dioxide

You apparently donít understand that carbon dioxide, and other emissions, accumulate in the atmosphere.

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Old 03-23-22, 03:38 PM
  #37  
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One person's contributing to global warming is another person's staving off the next ice age. For various reasons, the Earth has heated and cooled over time and yet we are here.

Of this I am certain. My bicycle doesn't matter.
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Old 03-23-22, 05:06 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
One person's contributing to global warming is another person's staving off the next ice age. For various reasons, the Earth has heated and cooled over time and yet we are here.

Of this I am certain. My bicycle doesn't matter.
Here you are for now.
Are you assuming your part of the coast still exists in a few years?
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Old 03-23-22, 06:15 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
You must be very concerned about this, then, since the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is currently well over 400 parts per million:

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...carbon-dioxide

You apparently donít understand that carbon dioxide, and other emissions, accumulate in the atmosphere.
Something doesnít add up. We know every ton of coal, every barrel of oil, is still floating around us as CO2.
7 ppm canít be right.
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Old 03-23-22, 06:15 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
You must be very concerned about this, then, since the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is currently well over 400 parts per million:

https://www.climate.gov/news-feature...carbon-dioxide

You apparently donít understand that carbon dioxide, and other emissions, accumulate in the atmosphere.
Something doesnít add up. We know every ton of coal, every barrel of oil, is still floating around us as CO2.
7 ppm canít be right.
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Old 03-24-22, 05:46 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
Something doesnít add up. We know every ton of coal, every barrel of oil, is still floating around us as CO2.
7 ppm canít be right.
I think even rydabent must have realized that his claim is absurd, as he seems to have deleted the post.
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Old 03-24-22, 06:45 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
Something doesnít add up. We know every ton of coal, every barrel of oil, is still floating around us as CO2.
7 ppm canít be right.

It's extremely complicated because there is a cycle where carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere then captured by plant growth, which takes it out of the atmosphere. What industrialization accomplished is the production of CO2 at levels too high to be fully captured, and this imbalance causes the pCO2 in the atmosphere to increase over time. It fluctuates month by month with growing season, but the average annual pCO2 has been rising steadily to very high levels. https://research.noaa.gov/article/Ar...carbon-dioxide
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Old 03-24-22, 08:30 AM
  #43  
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The denialism of Covid-19, Evolution, the link between lung cancer and smoking is identical to that of the denial of Climate Change. The arguments and tactics are all the same.
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Old 03-24-22, 08:50 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think you should go ahead and cancel the thread. Otherwise, there's a lot of very political climate change denialism that's going to require answering. Sorry, but I'm completely baffled by what the difference is between things that are being deleted and things that are not, and several of the posts that were deleted are still there in the quotes.
Baffled as usual.
Just like the recent thread that you got kicked out of by a mod
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Old 03-24-22, 03:07 PM
  #45  
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President Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov ....
"Dad, is that made up? That sounds made up."



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Old 03-25-22, 09:35 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
This thread has lots of political comments weíre deleting. Optical discussions arenít allowed except in the P&R forum. Some of you may disagree with that but we do it for a reason - politics will drive just about any cycling discussion into heated off-topic arguments.

If you want to discuss this subject more in political terms, move it to P&R. But if political posts continue, we have no choice but cancel the thread.

Stan
The whole thread is political and should be deleted.
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Old 03-25-22, 09:37 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
I think even rydabent must have realized that his claim is absurd, as he seems to have deleted the post.
No it was deleted for me, like the truth usually is these days.
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Old 03-25-22, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Like you're credible to make that judgment? Wanna be constructive? Figure out how to reduce emissions without ruining our standard of living or our economy. If the climate keeps going this way, we aren't going to be able to maintain either.

Are you denying that CO2 levels have gone up significantly in the last century?

You're entitled to your own opinions, you're not entitled to your own facts, and this is total bs.



What I posted is pure math. Arguing with pure math doesnt seem to be very smart to me.
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Old 03-25-22, 09:53 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
No it was deleted for me, like the truth usually is these days.

You weren't even truth adjacent.

So, just to recap, the ploy is to take something that's been proven scientifically, then post something completely nonscientific supposedly "refuting" the science, then claim that any pointing out that what you're saying is complete nonsense is "political".
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Old 03-25-22, 09:55 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You weren't even truth adjacent.

So, just to recap, the ploy is to take something that's been proven scientifically, then post something completely nonscientific supposedly "refuting" the science, then claim that any pointing out that what you're saying is complete nonsense is "political".
Look up the numbers that I posted. I got them directly from google. Numbers dont lie.
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