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Right hooked her. Ran over her. She's dead.

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Right hooked her. Ran over her. She's dead.

Old 11-21-22, 06:59 PM
  #76  
tungsten
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Originally Posted by Schweinhund View Post
Just stop. 99.999 percent of truck drivers are good honest people and never have an accident.
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Old 11-21-22, 09:46 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Schweinhund View Post
Are you SURE about that. In my state, California, it is. I would bet it is in your state as well.
No, not sure and I do not know what NY law is. It seems logical that a moving vehicle (in this case a bicycle) has right of way in the lane that it is traveling (in this case a designated bicycle lane). This is pretty common vehicle law that a vehicle changing lanes or turning (which describes what the truck was doing) must yield to a vehicle/bicycle in that lane. The truck does not have right-of-way. For whatever reason, the truck driver did not check to ascertain if the turn and lane change was a safe move. The burden is completely on the driver of the truck to do so.
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Old 11-24-22, 05:40 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by LV2TNDM View Post
This simply is not true. Not at all. In fact, your incorrect understanding of the law and vehicle code is a problem. It's YOUR thinking that endangers cyclists. I've had many, many pedestrians step into my path ILLEGALLY and almost cause a collision. The California Vehicle Code makes it clear that pedestrians must first obey the law. They can't simply walk against a red light in a busy intersection without fault if they're hit. Hit by a car or a bicycle, it doesn't matter: the pedestrian crossing against the red is at fault.

Additionally, the VC understands that there's common sense involved too. A pedestrian, even while crossing legally in a marked crosswalk, must make his intentions known and clear to oncoming drivers. So in other words, if a pedestrian suddenly darts into a marked crosswalk without warning and you run him over in your car or on your bike, the pedestrian is at fault. It's quite simple.

Perpetuating your misinformation only makes conditions worse for cyclists. One of my college team members was taken out by a pedestrian illegally crossing against a red light. Pedestrian was unharmed, cyclist suffered broken bones. Idiots who don't cross legally are a danger to all cyclists.

​​​​​​This week on my evening ride home I had an unusual incident with a pedestrian.

I'm riding in a painted bike lane at around 16mph. It's California, dark, and I have bright lights (bar and helmet).

Ahead there's a cross walk with one of those recent upgrades to being lit up with flashing lights on demand by a pedestrian to indicate their crossing.

Okay. So far so good.

The pedex crossing is not an intersection .

I cannot see the pedestrian because of trees, wall, and rightward curving roadway (and this is the reason why there is this type of crossing, and I've ridden here for years and thinking about it, there have probably been multiple serious accidents here where formerly people would simply Jay walk).

Anyway... A young professionally dressed woman appears on the right, presses the button, and walks onto the road with hardly a glance up the street, and I am forced to make an emergency stop.

Now that's okay by me. I did what I am supposed to do and it worked. But I cannot help but think that the lit pedestrian crossing gave that woman more encouragement and a false sense of security .

I am positive she saw me coming and decided to exercise her right and made a calculation of the odds.

Of course I may be wrong in my assessment.

​​​​​​Is it better to live another day than be dead right?

Sometimes the things that intend to be safety enhancements provide a false sense of security.

For example, metal stairways are slippery, and we put grip tape on them to help prevent slipping, but they are still slippery.
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Old 11-24-22, 06:17 AM
  #79  
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It's all tragic.

Would bright daytime flashing lights help?

I've been using lights to help others see me. I've noticed more and more riders using them too.

Much to my disappointment I witnessed a rider the other day, in daylight with bright blinking lights, doing nothing wrong, almost get hit by a left hook.

Then the next day, a similar thing happened to me!

This left me wondering if drivers cannot really discern flashing lights for what they are intended. But I have decided that the drivers are probably distracted by devices and are only looking for cars and trucks.

Dangerous situations in urban traffic are probably increasing.

Edit to add:

On the other hand, is it possible that the drivers noticed the bicyclist because of the flashing lights and decided to encroach upon their space to give them a scare?

​​​​​​

Last edited by Sorcerer; 11-24-22 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Added text for clarity
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Old 11-27-22, 08:56 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by tungsten View Post
Tough, we didn't used to have seatbelts either.
If the taxpayers can afford to put cameras on cops chests so we can (hopefully) hold them accountable when they murder us than we can afford simple cameras and monitors for the trucking industry.
Easy to find the $ by skimming the pay of their stinkin' CEO's.
And if it was your wife? What's a life worth? Saving a few pennies on your on-line bike parts?
you miss my point. It’s easy to look at something in hindsight and say we should mandate this or that which again in hindsight might , or might not, have prevented the particular occurrence. My point is that if you look bigger picture, you need to look at actual data, and weigh costs and benefits, not just base policy on a knee jerk reaction to a single anecdote
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Old 11-28-22, 07:25 AM
  #81  
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This event is mentioned in a front page story in the NYT today, on the increase on US traffic deaths.
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Old 12-01-22, 06:34 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
you miss my point. It’s easy to look at something in hindsight and say we should mandate this or that which again in hindsight might , or might not, have prevented the particular occurrence. My point is that if you look bigger picture, you need to look at actual data, and weigh costs and benefits, not just base policy on a knee jerk reaction to a single anecdote

That's a major reason I hate this kind of thread--it usually comes down to arguing about the specifics of the anecdote as rhetorical support for people's personal policy objectives.
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Old 12-01-22, 07:38 AM
  #83  
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Interesting.... I did not know that bikes are required to yield to a turning driver.

I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).

I did find this when doing a Google Search:
"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."
This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.

If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?


Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle. Its all on the driver of the truck to be aware of cyclists in the designated cycling lane and to only turn when it is clear. The truck driver did not do that clearly.
Originally Posted by Schweinhund View Post
Are you SURE about that. In my state, California, it is. I would bet it is in your state as well.
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Old 12-01-22, 09:21 AM
  #84  
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In my state of Florida a motorist must yield to a cyclist in a bike lane and turn behind the cyclist. However, there are so few cyclists that I'm sure most motorist don't even think to look. I'm always taking the lane when traffic is slow enough that a Right Hook is very possible.


6.2.2 - Bike Lanes Intersections and Driveways

At intersections, always assume that bicyclists are traveling straight unless they signal otherwise. Yield to bicycles just as you would to any other vehicle. Bicyclists often ride on sidewalks and trails, so look both ways before crossing a sidewalk or trail. A bicycle may come from an unexpected direction.

A large percentage of motorist bicycle crashes occur at intersections. When making a left turn, check for and yield to bicyclists coming from the opposite direction. When making a right turn, signal your turn, check for bicyclists, and do not turn directly in front of a bicyclist. They may travel faster than you think. When a bike lane is present, signal your turn and yield to any bicyclist in the bike lane, before crossing the bike lane to enter a right turn lane. If no right turn lane is present, yield to any cyclist present in the bike lane and make your turn behind the bicyclist. Otherwise merge into the bike lane before making your turn.
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Old 12-01-22, 10:21 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Sorcerer View Post
​​​​​​This week on my evening ride home I had an unusual incident with a pedestrian.

I'm riding in a painted bike lane at around 16mph. It's California, dark, and I have bright lights (bar and helmet).

Ahead there's a cross walk with one of those recent upgrades to being lit up with flashing lights on demand by a pedestrian to indicate their crossing.

Okay. So far so good.

The pedex crossing is not an intersection .

I cannot see the pedestrian because of trees, wall, and rightward curving roadway (and this is the reason why there is this type of crossing, and I've ridden here for years and thinking about it, there have probably been multiple serious accidents here where formerly people would simply Jay walk).

Anyway... A young professionally dressed woman appears on the right, presses the button, and walks onto the road with hardly a glance up the street, and I am forced to make an emergency stop.

Now that's okay by me. I did what I am supposed to do and it worked. But I cannot help but think that the lit pedestrian crossing gave that woman more encouragement and a false sense of security .

I am positive she saw me coming and decided to exercise her right and made a calculation of the odds.

Of course I may be wrong in my assessment.

​​​​​​Is it better to live another day than be dead right?

Sometimes the things that intend to be safety enhancements provide a false sense of security.

For example, metal stairways are slippery, and we put grip tape on them to help prevent slipping, but they are still slippery.
When rapid-flash beacons or in-roadway lights are installed at a pedestrian crosswalk, good design practice is to maximize visibility and conspicuity of the lights to traffic on the street, but minimize the visibility of the lights to crossing pedestrians, so that the crossing pedestrian will take their cue to cross from the behavior of approaching traffic, not the lights themselves. It's impractical to completely eliminate the visibility of the lights to crossing pedestrians, but minimizing that visibility is usually quite feasible.
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Old 12-01-22, 06:43 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by timdow View Post
Interesting.... I did not know that bikes are required to yield to a turning driver.


I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).


I did find this when doing a Google Search:

"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."

This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.


If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?



Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post

Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle.

Taking out of context. Again. If a vehicle is already initiating a turn, has already started around the corner and a bicycle enters the swing//strike zone after and gets hit, it's the bicyclist's fault.

When you change lanes in your car, you turn on your blinker, check twice and change lanes. If someone pulls behind you at a high rate (supra legal) of speed and you hit them because you reasonably could not have predicted that their speed was that much higher than yours. Would that be your fault?

So if someone is turning and some bicyclist effectively rides into the side of them, how's that their fault?

You cannot require right of way to be by predicting that a bicycle may come along right now in a moment. I can't see one but hey I'll just wait here.

The bicyclist, seeing that a vehicle is turning in it's path has to allow for it to maneuver.

Just because you are on a bicycle you do not have any rights above a car's. You can get away with more and it seems that's what you want codified.

BTW, there is a lawyer made every second, they all want your money. They'll say whatever they have to, to get it.
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Old 12-01-22, 07:05 PM
  #87  
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Truck right hooks are all too common, and nothing that follows is intended to excuse negligent drivers in any way.

HOWEVER

We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.

I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.

As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.

Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.

Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.

Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
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Old 12-04-22, 11:08 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.

But this would take introspection, no denial, and willingness to take responsibility for ones own actions, choices, and risk taking in life. All qualities I find in short supply at A&S.
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Old 12-04-22, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
But this would take introspection, no denial, and willingness to take responsibility for ones own actions, choices, and risk taking in life. All qualities I find in short supply at A&S.
I suspect that part of the issue with some A&S folks is that they have a binary, zero-sum worldview. So they take any suggestion that cyclist victims might have contributed to their misfortune, as implying that we're making excuses for drivers.

By the same token, any suggestion that cyclists can manage their own safety on our "poorly designed infrastructure" implies opposition to improving it.

Last edited by FBinNY; 12-04-22 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 12-05-22, 12:37 PM
  #90  
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Some of you should not be riding bikes, you're a danger to yourselves!

Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?

Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer.

Never pull alongside a car when you are approaching an intersection or a driveway, stay behind them enough so you can stop comfortably if they do turn, I usually take the lane in those situations, so I ride like I'm in a car, behind the car in front of me, and in front of the car in front of me, that way I don't have someone trying to beat me to intersection so they can cut me off to make their turn. Keep your ears open, because the sound of a car engine behind you can tell you a lot, if they suddenly accelerate as your approaching an intersection, it's good bet they intend to race you to the intersection so they can turn in front of you. Are they in the wrong for doing that, yup, big time because it's intentional, but again yield to them anyways so you don't get killed.

One poster mentioned using flashing lights during the day, yes, by all means you should be using a very bright strobe light on the front, and a very bright flashing taillight; while that is good and safe practice to do, the ultimate safety of you is you using your brain, just because you have 10 million lumen lights flashing all around you won't guarantee you your safety, you have to use your head.

I've been riding bikes on city surface streets for over 40 years, while the cycling infrastructure is not that good in the US, and especially back 40 years ago, I still got around safely, in fact most of us did, I had quiet a few close calls, and a few accidents early on riding around Los Angeles, and thankfully survived those, but I also used them as a teaching tool and learned by them. Sometimes things happen that are completely out of your hands, I understand that, but you can eliminate probably 98% of all accidents that occur if you use your head all the time when out on the road, and that means do not use your cell phone for either yakking on or for listening to music, you have to have you head 100% on your riding. I have a bit of an advantage over most of you because I use to race cars, and that knowledge does help quite a bit believe it or not, but if you keep your head in the game you'll come out a lot further ahead...no pun intended. There were videos posted that if you watch them you can learn from someone else's mistakes, you can also find other videos on line that you can also watch and see if there is anything to learn from those.

I have a few more videos for you all to watch, and a website to read, this stuff is so that you understand what is going on with other drivers, as well as a safety site to help you all to ride more carefully and safely; I'm not saying I'm the best rider in world by showing you guys this stuff, all I want to saying is that I want to hopefully in some small way to help someone not to die on this forum.


There are 2 very good videos here, but note, in the first video they add a convex mirror to the truck and then the driver can see a roll of cyclists next to his truck, what the article failed to tell people is that you must NEVER assume the driver can see you, even if you can see him, it doesn't mean he's paying enough attention to see you, so ride like they can't see you at all. https://cyclingsavvy.org/what-cyclis...-about-trucks/

https://bicyclesafe.com/

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Old 12-05-22, 01:25 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
The most likely scenario is the truck slowed to make a wide turn, then cyclist caught up and entered the **** zone.
Very likely. Been in such situations, myself ... both on the vehicle and the bike end. It's ugly, such situations. And incumbent on all parties to see it coming and guard against it to the degree possible. (No idea, myself, which did and didn't happen in this given situation.)

About all we can do:
  • Don't pass another where there's very little room for error or very little space/time before possible contact.
  • Don't get into the "death" zone, with other vehicles, where the most unlikely thing could easily be attempted at the worst possible moment.
  • Assume the other guy doesn't see you, and drive/ride accordingly.
  • Always be looking for "outs," 'cause they might well be necessary at the drop of a hat.
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Old 12-05-22, 02:21 PM
  #92  
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It's sometimes frustrating (for lack of a better word) that A&S lumps these together.

While there's definitely overlap, they are different concepts. As road users we can advocate for making things better and safer. But ultimately, we have to take personal responsibility for our own safety.

So there are two different perspectives, and while they're not mutually exclusive, lumping them together leads to pointless debates. If it were my choice, I'd split these into 2 forums. One for things related to advocacy. And one focused on discussing safety issues from the perspective of what cyclists can do to keep themselves safe.

Keep in mind that even in a perfect world, we will always encounter situations where our safety depends on our decisions. It's not about rights, it's about practical realities.

Ride smart and stay safe.
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Old 12-05-22, 03:26 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Truck right hooks are all too common, and nothing that follows is intended to excuse negligent drivers in any way.

HOWEVER

We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.

I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.

As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.

Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.

Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.

Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
Depending on the situation, I often take the opposite approach and will actually drift up at a stopped intersection and place myself front and center of the traffic or if there is no stop at the intersection, I will pull into that position long before the trailing traffic can get to me. I think a lot of right hooks happen because drivers think if they speed up, they'll clear us with just enough room to spare, and centering in the lane makes it obvious that this isn't possible.
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Old 12-05-22, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Some of you should not be riding bikes, you're a danger to yourselves!

Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?

Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer./
Who the hell is this even aimed at? Quit telling people what they think. You're so off the mark and nasty, it's ridiculous. On a road with a bunch of traffic, there's no number of vehicles you need to let pass before you are going to be safe because there's pretty much always one more behind the vehicle that's passing you. These are extremely situational decisions, and :"always yield" is a rule that will often find you sitting in someone's blind spot. I don't subscribe to many "always" rules, traffic and conditions are too variable for a one-size-fits-all-situations approach.

And yes, being too timid can get you killed, as well. Indecision can make you either invisible or completely unpredictable.
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Old 12-05-22, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Depending on the situation, I often take the opposite approach and will actually drift up at a stopped intersection and place myself front and center of the traffic .....
Yes, there are alternate approaches that work. I'll adjust what I do according to the specific situation.

In dense urban areas, I'll often find myself waiting abreast of a truck at a corner. I shout "Yo, don't turn right", and get a laugh when they respond, "I wasn't going to".
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Old 12-07-22, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Yes, there are alternate approaches that work. I'll adjust what I do according to the specific situation.

In dense urban areas, I'll often find myself waiting abreast of a truck at a corner. I shout "Yo, don't turn right", and get a laugh when they respond, "I wasn't going to".
Definitely, these really are very situational questions. That's why I find the "do it my way or end up being dead right" posts so annoying. To be clear, I like your posts especially because you recognize the numerous ways to approach this, and talking about how we do that is a lot more interesting than getting endless lectures about why I shouldn't be riding the way I do.

TBH, I don't know how I'd handle the situation in NY with its laws requiring staying in the bike lane, etc. that largely force you to the right of traffic at intersections. I do most of my riding in NH and MA. MA doesn't have a FRAP law at all, and neither state makes bike lanes mandatory.
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Old 12-07-22, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
........

TBH, I don't know how I'd handle the situation in NY with its laws requiring staying in the bike lane, etc. that largely force you to the right of traffic at intersections. ...
.
I lived in Manhattan for 10÷ years using my bike as my main transport. Back then, in the late sixties, there were no bike lanes.

NYC instructed bicyclists to keep LEFT on Manhattan's one way avenues, which was surprisingly enlightened. Keeping left meant no bus leap frog, better sightlines and clearance calculations for drivers and greatly reduced risk of dooring, since only a small percentage of cars have passengers.

Contrary to outsider's assumptions riding in NYC's dense traffic was reasonably safe because speeds were better matched, and NYC drivers operate at very levels of awareness.

When NYC added the b bike lanes on one way avenues they placed them on the left, following the earlier logic. While I'm not a fan, it seems to work because left turning drivers have better sight lines, so left hooks aren't as common. Also note that most intersections have many pedestrians, so drivers get smarter pretty quickly.

On the personal note, I've never been a fan of bike lanes and actually preferred shared roadways. These days, when I ride in NYC I avoid avenues with bike lanes, so I don't risk dealing with overzealous cops enforcing stupid laws.

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Old 12-07-22, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I lived in Manhattan for 10÷ years using my bike as my main transport. Back then, in the late sixties, there were no bike lanes.

NYC instructed bicyclists to keep LEFT on Manhattan's one way avenues, which was surprisingly enlightened. Keeping left meant no bus leap frog, better sightlines and clearance calculations.for drives, and greatly reduced risk of dooring.

Contrary to outsider's assumptions riding in NYC's dense traffic was reasonably safe because speeds were better matched, and NYC drivers operate at very levels of awareness.

When NYC added the b bike lanes on one way avenues they placed them on the left, following the earlier logic. While I'm not a fan, it seems to work because left turning drivers have better sight lines, so left hooks aren't as common. Also note that most intersections have many pedestrians, so drivers get smarter pretty quickly.

On the personal note, I've never been a fan of bike lanes and actually preferred shared roadways. When I ride in NYC I avoid avenues with bike lanes, so I don't risk dealing with overzealous cops enforcing stupid laws.
Thanks!

Can you tell I've never ridden in NYC? LOL

Do other cities in NY state follow this lane placement?
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Old 12-07-22, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
.....

Do other cities in NY state follow this lane placement?
Some, but I've no idea whether it's common.

Where I live in the burbs, there are some politically correct painted bike lanes, but they're ill conceived and pointless. There aren't many broad one ways, but I know of at least one, and it's divided bike lane is on the left.

As for the rest of the state, I don't know and have no reason to care.
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Old 12-07-22, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
As for the rest of the state, I don't know and have no reason to care.
No shufflin' off to Buffalo for you, eh?
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