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Spat at, abused and run off the road

Old 08-30-22, 01:57 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Broctoon View Post
Another contributing factor could be the rapid population growth we're seeing here. More people = more traffic, and roads becoming more crowded.
Playing devil's advocate here, but more people could simply = more accidents. The way to determine that would be to calculate if a higher percentage of the population is getting in accidents.
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Old 08-30-22, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
Playing devil's advocate here, but more people could simply = more accidents. The way to determine that would be to calculate if a higher percentage of the population is getting in accidents.
Good point. I don't know if we're seeing a higher rate per capita, or just a higher number commensurate with the higher population.
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Old 08-30-22, 02:08 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
Playing devil's advocate here, but more people could simply = more accidents. The way to determine that would be to calculate if a higher percentage of the population is getting in accidents.
Originally Posted by Broctoon View Post
Good point. I don't know if we're seeing a higher rate per capita, or just a higher number commensurate with the higher population.
A lot of the stats are like this set, which breaks it down to accidents per 100k people in a population...Which is still not very useful. Air and vehicle travel accident rates are typically measured per 1 million miles traveled, which is much more useful -- but that's easier to measure for motorized vehicles.
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Old 08-30-22, 02:08 PM
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This post should so be in A&S....

/yawn
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Old 08-30-22, 02:24 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
A lot of the stats are like this set, which breaks it down to accidents per 100k people in a population...Which is still not very useful. Air and vehicle travel accident rates are typically measured per 1 million miles traveled, which is much more useful -- but that's easier to measure for motorized vehicles.

Per million miles traveled always make bikes seem incredibly dangerous by comparison just because the trips are shorter. Ideally, the comparison would be by hours on/in the vehicle.

There's so much trouble with collecting data on pretty much all of the relevant variables that this is usually an exercise in GI/GO, however.
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Old 08-30-22, 02:30 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...probably more an A+S topic, but the average driver will not suffer any serious consequences as the result of a car versus bike collision that kills the bicyclist. There's only one person talking to the cops at that point, and the story almost always gets written down as, "He just suddenly veered out into the traffic lane. There was nothing I could do." I've seen it so many times in the news, I've lost count. And I used to work the same accident scenes as the cops. They all think anyone who rides a bike on city streets is nuts, and probably ought to expect bad things to happen. I've not spoken to the bicycle cops, because they were not the ones responding to car vs bike collisions.

But it wouldn't surprise me at all if they feel the same way. You're on your own out there.
Agree as far as the cops and the criminal justice system are concerned, but there have been some pretty substantial civil awards in such cases.
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Old 08-30-22, 02:55 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
A lot of the stats are like this set, which breaks it down to accidents per 100k people in a population...Which is still not very useful. Air and vehicle travel accident rates are typically measured per 1 million miles traveled, which is much more useful -- but that's easier to measure for motorized vehicles.
I hadn't even considered that!

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Per million miles traveled always make bikes seem incredibly dangerous by comparison just because the trips are shorter. Ideally, the comparison would be by hours on/in the vehicle.
Good point. I wonder if that skews accident stats in busy cities like Los Angeles/New York/etc. where they take an hour to do their 20 mile commute.
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Old 08-30-22, 03:11 PM
  #33  
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Even if drivers are fairly considerate, driving in urban rush-hour traffic is a difficult and dangerous undertaking. If there are more drivers, more congestion, more frustration .... and also more riders, particularly newer riders who are thinking how great cycling will be .... I know I Learned to cope with dangerous and aggressive drivers and dense traffic---and bad pavement, etc---by making a few (luckily not fatal) errors, and losing some skin and some bikes. Any of my accidents could easily have been fatal, I just got lucky or something.

Nowadays there is a lot more literature (video I guess) about ways to negotiate traffic .... but if people don't know they need to learn, if people just think "It's riding a bike, it's easy" they might create dangerous situations .... or roll right into them .... and not get a chance to learn.
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Old 08-30-22, 03:25 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Per million miles traveled always make bikes seem incredibly dangerous by comparison just because the trips are shorter. Ideally, the comparison would be by hours on/in the vehicle.

There's so much trouble with collecting data on pretty much all of the relevant variables that this is usually an exercise in GI/GO, however.
Exposure hours would be the best metric. Unfortunately that kind of data set takes a lot of effort to generate.
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Old 08-30-22, 03:38 PM
  #35  
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That was a very good read and largely consistent with both my observations and beliefs.

This comment really stood out to me:...a third of people see cyclists as “less than fully human” “People can behave aggressively towards cyclists because they see them as dehumanised," I started this thread 6 years ago: I May Be On To Something In it, I made this comment: "Now instead of being an annoying bicyclist I am seen as an American first. A human. It humanizes the encounter."

Another comment stood out: "
the anti-cycling hysteria is out of all proportion to the danger cyclists pose to society." I have said the same thing many times over, but added that it's out of proportion with any inconvenience motorists suffer as well.

In the article they mentioned filtering to the front of traffic and being positioned in front of traffic. Any cyclist that butts in line then slows the pace of those they cut in front of is deserving of motorist's scorn.
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Old 08-30-22, 03:44 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
I had always assumed if I looked like I was taking visibility and safety seriously, it would lessen the antagonism, not increase it.
you are using logic where the aggressive people are using emotion. The greater the perceived difference between people/groups, the more suspicion, aggression and bad behavior. Where I live, there plenty of guys with pickup trucks with gun racks whereas me in Lycra on my skinny racing bike probably appears to be some rich entitled alien from a different universe. And they couldnt be more right.
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Old 08-30-22, 03:47 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Broctoon View Post
Good point. I don't know if we're seeing a higher rate per capita, or just a higher number commensurate with the higher population.
Or better reporting.
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Old 08-30-22, 04:29 PM
  #38  
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Ever heard the phrase " Fences make the best neighbours"?

Cars and bicycles don't mix. That's why we need separated and protected bike lanes where cars can't enter unless they try really hard.

Someone in BF would probably call them death traps.

Every new bike lane installed in Toronto has been initially met with the usual grumbling and complaints by motorist using the same arguments of motorists around the world. But followup surveys in Toronto have repeatedly shown increase in approvals even amongst motorists.
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Old 08-30-22, 04:32 PM
  #39  
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I have not looked at the article, likely will not. Civility is disappearing, it is likely to get worse. This morning, I came pretty close to getting hit by a driver that was cutting the corner by using the opposite direction turn lane. He was not looking where he was going. I started to swerve just as he picked his head up and saw me. He jerked the wheel to avoid me, tbh, I think I could have moved enough if he had not seen me, for sure not to take a direct hit, but too close to call. If I had not been looking out, pretty sure there would have been contact. I do not mind saying, it disturbed me.
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Old 08-30-22, 04:42 PM
  #40  
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The close passes even when not blocking vehicle traffic is just plain bullying.
What's the point if you are a driver? I have the power to maim or kill you?
Incivility? No, sociopathy is more accurate.
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Old 08-30-22, 05:17 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by CAT7RDR View Post
The close passes even when not blocking vehicle traffic is just plain bullying.
What's the point if you are a driver? I have the power to maim or kill you?
Incivility? No, sociopathy is more accurate.
Their twisted little minds probably think, If I scare them bad enough, they will stop biking riding on my roads.

Even though I obey traffic laws (when visible to vehicles) and dont impede traffic or act rudely to drivers, I used to get a lot of abuse from aggressive drivers. This included, close passes, yelling, beer cans and garbage thrown, a vanilla milkshake, cherry bombs, pulling off on the shoulder in front of me and spinning gravel at me when I approached, air horn blown in my ear and shot at. You ride enough miles in a lifetime and you are bound to encounter a lot. However, In the last 15 years I have only had one close pass and thats it. Must be the gray hair and shriveled legs.
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Old 08-30-22, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
Their twisted little minds probably think, If I scare them bad enough, they will stop biking riding on my roads.

Even though I obey traffic laws (when visible to vehicles) and dont impede traffic or act rudely to drivers, I used to get a lot of abuse from aggressive drivers. This included, close passes, yelling, beer cans and garbage thrown, a vanilla milkshake, cherry bombs, pulling off on the shoulder in front of me and spinning gravel at me when I approached, air horn blown in my ear and shot at. You ride enough miles in a lifetime and you are bound to encounter a lot. However, In the last 15 years I have only had one close pass and thats it. Must be the gray hair and shriveled legs.
the look of being "older" does seem to factor in, as in, the more prune like look, the less likely to be bothered.
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Old 08-30-22, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
the look of being "older" does seem to factor in, as in, the more prune like look, the less likely to be bothered.
Prune like seems to sum it up beautifully. You definitely have a gift, which cannot be returned nor exchanged.
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Old 08-30-22, 07:17 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post

Spat at, abused and run off the road: why do some people hate cyclists so much?

Link to article in Guardian (UK)
Only cyclists are hated but not commuters. Try to make yourself look like a commuter, wear bright colored loose clothing, and you'll face a lot less aggression on the road. When motorists see a cyclist with a full on road or race kit, they remember the huge group rides making it difficult and dangerous to pass and entitled hot-headed maniacs who don't use their brakes and fly through crowded areas with kids playing around at TdF speeds. The gloves, cycling eyewear, dark clothing all gives that "smug, superior" looks.

I do understand why cyclists are quite timid at braking. The risk of endover accidents braking hard from high speed and braking too often can wear you down on very long rides and also reduce your average speed. But giving courtesy a higher priority than maximizing your average speed on rides will go a long way in reducing tension in the road and improving the collective image of cyclists. Slow down when approaching blind spots, crowded areas, and rows of houses along the road. But it would seem many cyclists are far too entitled to see this. All they care about is their image on Strava.

From the article:
“People can behave aggressively towards cyclists because they see them as dehumanised,” Mitchell agrees. “One of the things I feel I have a responsibility to do as a leader of Cycling UK, and as a woman, is to cycle around in ordinary clothes.”
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Old 08-30-22, 07:20 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Cars and bicycles don't mix. That's why we need separated and protected bike lanes where cars can't enter unless they try really hard.
Disagree. Strongly.

I avoid the bicycle ghettos whenever possible.

Edit: Here's an example of a bicycle ghetto, recently installed on a local road. Who would actually want to ride there?



McClellan Rd bicycle ghetto, Cupertino, CA
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Old 08-30-22, 07:25 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Disagree. Strongly.

I avoid the bicycle ghettos whenever possible.
So according to the followup surveys, you would belong to the smaller group who disagree. Noted.

You would have choices. So will others.

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Old 08-30-22, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
So according to the followup surveys, you would belong to the smaller group who disagree. Noted.

You would have choices. So will others.
A large problem with bicycle ghettos is that motorists think that cyclists are required to ride there, making some motorists angry when they see a cyclist legally riding on the roadway.

Causing even more motorist hostility.

Then there's the other annoying stuff:
  • often insufficient room to pass
  • often no way to avoid road debris
  • they are debris collectors
  • no way to avoid wrong way riders
  • homeowners who place their bins there on pickup day
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Old 08-30-22, 08:21 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
A large problem with bicycle ghettos is that motorists think that cyclists are required to ride there, making some motorists angry when they see a cyclist legally riding on the roadway.

Causing even more motorist hostility.

Then there's the other annoying stuff:
  • often insufficient room to pass
  • often no way to avoid road debris
  • they are debris collectors
  • no way to avoid wrong way riders
  • homeowners who place their bins there on pickup day
That was my observation as well.

A good compromise I think is using barrier posts 20 ft apart. This way, you can still swerve in and out of the bike lane and still discourage motorists from driving on the bike lane.
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Old 08-30-22, 09:18 PM
  #49  
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It's unfortunate bike trails aren't more common.
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Old 08-30-22, 09:22 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Cars and bicycles don't mix. That's why we need separated and protected bike lanes where cars can't enter unless they try really hard.
But we don't have those. And in my state - and others in which I've lived - a bicycle is, by and large, considered a vehicle on the roadway. The problem is motorists not treating cycles as vehicles.
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