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Is using a helmet cam worth it?

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Is using a helmet cam worth it?

Old 09-29-22, 08:15 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I suggest you might provide more financial protection for your wife in the event of your demise (for any reason) by carrying the appropriate amount of life insurance. Do not depend on her collecting a financial windfall from the unlikely event of her collecting it from an irresponsible hit-and-run driver with big pockets or high limits insurance coverage who gets caught and proven at fault for your death by means of your handy-dandy helmet camera.
You're missing the point..

Who are you going to collect from if you are seriously injured, incapacitated long term or paralyzed? You and your family will suffer massive financial setbacks and losses due to medical bills, loss of work wages etc.. That $200 or so camera could dissolve all that financial loss quite easily..

I agree that people should also have life insurance but not just because they cycle. Life insurance is cheap and can help cover funeral costs and leave some left for the family bills.
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Old 09-29-22, 08:49 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
Fancy that. She decided to de-escalate and no longer incriminate herself the moment she knew she was being filmed.

For those who question whether visible cameras deter poor behavior, it's a well documented phenomenon known as the Observer Effect (or sometimes called Hawthorne Effect).

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xml...=1&isAllowed=y
https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-ha...ras-1408320244
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mera/21997511/
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...ehavior-127762
https://www.bodycamera.co.uk/blogs/n...being-recorded

Obviously, the cameras won't be visible 100% of the time, but we do know that people are more likely than not to modify their behavior if they see one.
These reports support my experience having a highly visible rear-facing camera when I cycle.

However, with the prevalence of dashcams nowadays, why is driving as bad as ever? You'd think that drivers would be aware that they are being recorded by other drivers.

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Old 09-29-22, 09:44 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
However, with the prevalence of dashcams nowadays, why is driving as bad as ever? You'd think that drivers would be aware that they are being recorded by other drivers.
Again, it's about visibility. The "out of sight, out of mind" mentality. Everybody knows when they visit a store that there are security cameras, but how often do you consciously think about that? Almost never. Moreover, while the security cameras are almost always visible, they're placed in locations where you normally wouldn't focus your attention. You can quickly spot them IF you're actively looking for them. The same idea applies to cars. Dash cams are typically placed such that they're not easy to spot even in cars without tinted windows. My car's rear window is tinted, and you can't see it unless you're a foot away from the glass.

When people can see a cop they drive more carefully, and when the cops hide people drive as if they aren't there. That's how so many people get nailed for speeding.

When it comes to cycling, motorists have a generic mental image of what a cyclist will look like. Anything that is outside the "normal" image will draw attention. A camera on top of a helmet is one of those things. In the case of a rear camera, it's probably the blinking red recording light. When you approach a cyclist with a standard rear light (not a camera), your eyes are automatically drawn to it.
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Old 09-29-22, 10:37 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
You're missing the point..

Who are you going to collect from if you are seriously injured, incapacitated long term or paralyzed? You and your family will suffer massive financial setbacks and losses due to medical bills, loss of work wages etc.. That $200 or so camera could dissolve all that financial loss quite easily..

I agree that people should also have life insurance but not just because they cycle. Life insurance is cheap and can help cover funeral costs and leave some left for the family bills.
Presumably your own medical, auto or life insurance policies will cover such expenses.

Can you point out some reference for many or any cyclists (or their survivors) who have easily collected healthy sums of money only because the cyclist had the foresight to have a helmet or bicycle mounted camera capture a license plate number of a negligent driver with sufficient means or insurance to reimburse the cyclist/family for massive financial setbacks and losses due to medical bills, loss of work wages etc.? Sounds like a sales pitch based on wishful thinking.

Also I suggest you look up personal insurance for medical expenses as well as life insurance policies. Such policies (to include your own automobile insurance which may cover injuries while bicycling) do not have to be written with a bare bones minimum or zero payout.
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Old 09-29-22, 10:45 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Presumably your own medical, auto or life insurance policies will cover such expenses.

Can you point out some reference for many or any cyclists (or their survivors) who have easily collected healthy sums of money only because the cyclist had the foresight to have a helmet or bicycle mounted camera capture a license plate number of a negligent driver with sufficient means or insurance to reimburse the cyclist/family for massive financial setbacks and losses due to medical bills, loss of work wages etc.? Sounds like a sales pitch based on wishful thinking.

Also I suggest you look up personal insurance for medical expenses as well as life insurance policies. Such policies (to include your own automobile insurance which may cover injuries while bicycling) do not have to be written with a bare bones minimum or zero payout.
Most health insurance have high deductibles before co-pay kicks in.. Co-pay can vary by insurance company so even when it finally kicks in you are still not completely covered for the cost.

Health insurance won't generally cover you for lost wages unless you have a separate policy or a rider for that..

Why would your auto insurance cover you on a bike unless you have some sort of umbrella policy that covers you while on a bike?

Sales pitch? LOL.. It's an absolute fact of life that if a driver plows into you and they are at fault then their insurance will pay for medical bills, lost wages from work and damage to your bike.

Not sure why you have such a strong opinion on this when you don't appear to have a grasp on how it works but to each their own I guess.. Anti-camera onwards if it makes you happy...
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Old 09-29-22, 10:53 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Sounds like a sales pitch....
Your sales pitch left out Short Term Disability insurance and Long Term Disability Insurance.

You won't believe this "salesman" either, don't know why I bother.

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Old 09-29-22, 10:55 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Your sales pitch left out Short Term Disability insurance and Long Term Disability Insurance.

You won't believe this "salesman" either, don't know why I bother.

-mr. bill
I think (or hope) he is just trolling this thread..

Maybe he sells insurance and is trying to convince others to $1,000 a month for every insurance policy under the sun?
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Old 09-29-22, 01:31 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
Sales pitch? LOL.. It's an absolute fact of life that if a driver plows into you and they are at fault then their insurance will pay for medical bills, lost wages from work and damage to your bike.
Is it also an absolute fact of life that every at fault driver who plows into bicyclists, (especially hit and run drivers that need to be identified and located by a bicycle mounted camera) is driving with a paid-up full coverage auto liability insurance policy with a high maximum payout limit?
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Old 09-29-22, 01:36 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
I think (or hope) he is just trolling this thread..

Maybe he sells insurance and is trying to convince others to $1,000 a month for every insurance policy under the sun?
Got it, one bicyclist's shoulder injury case could be found that was strengthened by the video camera footage that his lawyer used to help confirm the fault for a collision, though it was not necessary for identifying or locating the responsible party and using it did not appear to be such an "easy" task. Sometimes catching lightning in a bottle does occur, but rarely. I wouldn't count on it or put much faith in it either.

I'd put such measures far down on the list of proactive actions for anyone to take who intends to provide financial security for himself or loved ones in case of misfortune.
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Old 09-29-22, 01:40 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Is it also an absolute fact of life that every at fault driver who plows into bicyclists, (especially hit and run drivers that need to be identified and located by a bicycle mounted camera) is driving with a paid-up full coverage auto liability insurance policy with a high maximum payout limit?
Got it.. So you'd rather be limited to say a 50K payout as opposed to nothing! LOL

Also, if your damages are higher than the insurance co pays then you can go after the driver for the remaining amount. You can garnish their pay, tax refunds etc for life until the debt is paid.. You can also put a lien on any property they own but meh, you are obviously trolling this thread or trying to sell insurance so I'll let you have at it..

Have a great day!
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Old 09-29-22, 01:46 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
Why would your auto insurance cover you on a bike unless you have some sort of umbrella policy that covers you while on a bike?
Perhaps you should read the advice from another bicycle lawyer at Does Auto Insurance Cover Bicycle Crashes
Extract:

Yes, Your Automobile Insurance Policy May Cover Your Bike Crash
When it comes to automobile insurance, it is important for all riders to know and understand that it is not just the driver’s automobile insurance coverage that matters, but our own. When I tell people this, the most common response is for people to think they misheard me. Then, when I tell them that I did indeed state that their automobile insurance may apply to their bike crash, they often ask something like: “Why on earth would my own automobile insurance company ever pay for my injuries from bicycle crash caused by someone else?”

The answer is actually quite simple and logical. When we buy automobile insurance, we are often purchasing insurance protection not only for the harm we may cause to other people with our automobiles but also for automobile-related harms that we may suffer. Our automobile insurance policies not only have liability provisions and property damage provisions that cover us in the event that caused harm to someone else or their vehicle and/or in the event our vehicle is damaged, but they also often contain provisions addressing uninsured/underinsured coverage (“UM coverage”) and medical payment insurance (“medpay coverage”). These provisions become important to us as bicyclists in the event of a crash.

Let me explain.

UM Coverage: What It Is and How It Can Protect Against More than Just “Hit and Runs”
UM Coverage is exactly what its name purports it to be. It is automobile insurance coverage that generally kicks in and covers an insured person when the motorist primarily responsible for a crash: (1) cannot be identified; (2) has been identified, but unlawfully does not carry any insurance (i.e. is uninsured); or (3) has been identified, has tendered his/her insurance policy limits, but does not carry enough insurance to fully compensate you and your family members for your losses and damages (i.e. is underinsured).

While many people rightfully associate UM Coverage with “hit and run” automobile v. automobile crashes, it is also important to know that UM Coverage also can apply when the “hit and run” involves injury to a bicyclist.

UM Coverage may also be available to an injured bicyclist in “no contact” situations (i.e. situations where an unidentified negligent driver leaves the scene of a crash after negligently causing a bicyclist to crash but without ever making contact with the bicyclist or the bicycle). For example, if a motorist acts negligently by violating the minimum three-foot passing law and causes a bicyclist to swerve and crash, and if that motorist intentionally or unintentionally leaves the scene of the crash, the bicyclist should be able to successfully make a UM claim under his or her own automobile policy for the amount of his or her damages up to the amount of the purchased UM Coverage.

Further, UM Coverage commonly extends to bicyclists in cases where a number of the damages suffered by the injured bicyclist exceeds the amount of the motorist’s insurance coverage. For example, had the Kalamazoo tragedy occurred in Maine, and had Mr. Pickett only carried the minimum amount of insurance required by Maine law (up to $50,000 per person and up to $100,000 total per crash), the bicyclists’ own UM coverages would all come into play. If each of the nine bicyclists received $11,111.11 under the driver’s policy and if one of the surviving nine bicyclists carried a UIM policy in the same amount of the driver, the most in UIM coverage that the bicyclist would likely be entitled to would be $38,888.89 (the difference between the $50,000 she purchased in coverage and the $11,111.11 he already received from the driver). In contrast, if one of the other surviving bicyclists purchased and carried $500,000 in UIM Coverage, that bicyclist would likely be entitled to receive up to $488,888.89 for damages arising out of the very same crash.
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Old 09-29-22, 01:46 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Got it, one bicyclist's shoulder injury case could be found that was strengthened by the video camera footage that his lawyer used to help confirm the fault for a collision, though it was not necessary for identifying or locating the responsible party and using it did not appear to be such an "easy" task. Sometimes catching lightning in a bottle does occur, but rarely. I wouldn't count on it or put much faith in it either.

I'd put such measures far down on the list of proactive actions for anyone to take who intends to provide financial security for himself or loved ones in case of misfortune.
"Rarely are we as lucky to have a client with a “Go Pro” or other device upon their bike but, when THEY [emphasis mine, not singular they, plural they] do, it can be as good as gold."

But what could Dan Flanzig possibly know that some rando on the internut doesn't think he knows better?

Yup. Lucy pulled the football away. AGAIN.

Why am I not shocked.

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Old 09-29-22, 01:52 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Perhaps you should read the advice from another bicycle lawyer at Does Auto Insurance Cover Bicycle Crashes
Extract:
Perhaps you should read that I already mentioned an umbrella policy... Good grief, to the ignore list..
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Old 09-29-22, 01:55 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I suggest you might provide more financial protection for your wife in the event of your demise (for any reason) by carrying the appropriate amount of life insurance. Do not depend on her collecting a financial windfall from the unlikely event of her collecting it from an irresponsible hit-and-run driver with big pockets or high limits insurance coverage who gets caught and proven at fault for your death by means of your handy-dandy helmet camera.
Absolutely. This isn't an either/or situation.
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Old 09-29-22, 02:03 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
Absolutely. This isn't an either/or situation.
Agree, though some starry-eyed go-pro enthusiasts seem to think so.
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Old 09-29-22, 02:08 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Agree, though some starry-eyed....
The starry-eyed among us are those [singular those] who think they [singular they] can call up their [singular their] insurance companies and say "I want money."

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Old 09-29-22, 02:08 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
Perhaps you should read that I already mentioned an umbrella policy... Good grief, to the ignore list..
Auto insurance to include medical payments and UM coverage is NOT an umbrella policy. Nor does the article state that an umbrella policy is required for a bicyclist to be covered by his own standard auto policy.
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Old 09-29-22, 02:12 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
The starry-eyed among us are those [singular those] who think they [singular they] can call up their [singular their] insurance company and say "I want money."

-mr. bill
Seems as if some widows might if they've been convinced about go-pro magical powers by their late starry-eyed spouse.
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Old 09-29-22, 02:15 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Seems as if some widows might if they've been convinced about go-pro magical powers by their late starry-eyed spouse.
Proving your starry-eyed spouse is dead doesn't require a GoPro. But you knew that, didn't you?

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Old 09-29-22, 02:26 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by travelinhobo View Post
those of you who at some point bought one and now video your rides... Did you notice any difference in how drivers responded to you? Any less stress/anger with it for you?
I've been running cameras on my bikes for 3 years. As I expected, it makes absolutely zero difference in driver behavior. How could it? All they see is some guy on a bike. They certainly can't see whether I have a camera, and they don't have time to consider the implications.

I do, however, have great video of things I've seen on my rides, I've documented a handful of dangerous dogs and drivers, and I get great video from my races to share with other racers. I was able to share video witha friend who crashed and didn't understand why, and it helped him figure out what went wrong.

Crux of the matter - in the event of an accident, a camera MAY capture some useful information. It won't make drivers, dogs, other cyclists, or road hazards any safer. It WILL absolutely capture some cool things going on that you otherwise might not have seen.
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Old 09-29-22, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
Fancy that. She decided to de-escalate and no longer incriminate herself the moment she knew she was being filmed.

For those who question whether visible cameras deter poor behavior, it's a well documented phenomenon known as the Observer Effect (or sometimes called Hawthorne Effect).

https://scholarworks.montana.edu/xml...=1&isAllowed=y
Unfortunately, a study, not an argument.

Correlating the frequency of violence when police use body cams isn't a blind study and throws far too many variables into the mix to say that the presence of cameras was a factor.

A first person anecdote. Not a study, not data.

OK. This one at least references studies, but the studies are testing the effects of explicit observation, not the effect of possible observation by unseen cameras.


Originally Posted by JW Fas;22662624[url
https://www.bodycamera.co.uk/blogs/news/what-is-the-observer-effect-and-why-people-act-differently-when-they-are-being-recorded
This is a sales pitch from a company selling body cams.

I appreciate the effort you put into establishing a logic to support your position, but nothing in the links you cite does so in any direct fashion. Bike cameras aren't analagous to body cams on cops or social psychology experiments with a human observer. It wouldn't be that hard to design a study that could test your hypothesis, but if it has been done, I haven't seen a citation.
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Old 09-29-22, 03:09 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by raqball View Post
Perhaps you should read that I already mentioned an umbrella policy... Good grief, to the ignore list..
I knew this thread was going downhill at post #29 eventhough I couldn't even read it.
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Old 09-29-22, 03:13 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
I've run cameras for nine years. When I first bought one I tested it on my handlebars and decided that wasn't the way to go for multiple reasons, so I mounted it to my helmet. Immediately, I noticed that the casual harassment plummeted.
Or confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
I also know people notice it, because occasionally people will comment on it.
No, this only shows some people notice it.

Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
Some of these are showing the behavior of the camera owner changes (which is irrelevant). In one, it's showing people on a TV show modify their behavior (which a situation very unlike the situation being discussed).

Originally Posted by JW Fas View Post
Obviously, the cameras won't be visible 100% of the time, but we do know that people are more likely than not to modify their behavior if they see one.
No, we don't know that cameras on bicycles/helmets does that at all.

I doubt people in cars are noticing small bumps on helmets. Your videos of bad-behaving people in cars is indication of that. The trash-thrower, especially, had lots of time to notice the bump and behaved badly anyway.

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Old 09-29-22, 03:27 PM
  #49  
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People using cameras had better be sure that they are good enough to capture license plates. Image stabilization might be a feature to look for.
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Old 09-29-22, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
I knew this thread was going downhill at post #29 eventhough I couldn't even read it.
Absolutely amazing how one person can completely derail a thread attempting to make their nonsensical argument sound plausible to anyone but themselves... His argument is to buy insurance, buy more insurance, buy even more insurance, up your medical coverage, lower your medical deductibles blah, blah, blah and all that insurance and medical coverage he wants you to buy ----> Well, it comes at a premium price per month.

I don't use my camera to prevent anything as I assume most will never see it or notice it.. I run it for a) piece of mind b) to capture evidence in case of an accident and c) capture other interesting things that happen like dogs chasing you, accidents behind me etc..
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