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Traffic IS TERRIBLE!

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Traffic IS TERRIBLE!

Old 10-02-22, 09:52 PM
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Class 2 ebike is throttle to 20mph. Not as fast as my old licensed moped but too too fast for all the idiots that have one. Parents using one to drop their kids off are some of the worst. Big effort by big motorbike manufacturers and a$tro-turf efforts to gain access to hard fought for BICYCLE infrastructure.

ebikes are not bicycles. Go fly a kite (or a drone more likely)
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Old 10-02-22, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by obrentharris
You, not he, are the one who offered that photo as an example of our salvation.
Brent
I offered it as an example of something C&V in the conversation that has nothing to do with C&V.

Apparently, no attention is being paid to those three Twitter posts of families enjoying far wider PBLs in more progressive cities.

EDIT: Were you expecting me to take a flight to another city just to put my Raleigh Sports in a proper bike lane? Or do you have the ability to magically make a world-class protected bike lane show up locally, where we're just lucky to have a few like the one I photographed myself in?

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-22, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
ebikes are not bicycles. Go fly a kite (or a drone more likely)
That attitude really is disgusting when viewed in the context of all the parents who've been able to ditch their SUVs for electric assist cargo bikes (most notably, the popular Radwagon is advertised and sold as Class 2).





Go tell them that their e-bikes aren't bicycles and to fly a kite. See how far it gets you.

Speaking of cargo bikes, they also move stuff other than kids too, often times with much more ease than the average Stupid Unnecessary Vehicle. I rage against any "utility" vehicle that cannot easily accept a 4' x 8' sheet-'o-something in the back.


It may not be an analog bit of C&V, but if it gets more people out on bikes and appreciating this lovely and scalable form of transportation, I'm all for it.

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-22, 10:26 PM
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Roads are too crowded and unsafe? Go ride gravel. It's quieter, climbs are steeper, and views are better.


I haven't found roads(paved or unpaved) to be worse now compared to a year ago or 5 years ago.
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Old 10-02-22, 10:28 PM
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Thread name: "Traffic is TERRIBLE!"

Thread contents: Bunch of people who ride bicycles - a mode of transportation known to significantly reduce traffic - whining about other people on bicycles actually making an effort to reduce traffic.

-Kurt
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Old 10-02-22, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Thread name: "Traffic is TERRIBLE!"
Thread contents: Bunch of people who ride bicycles - a mode of transportation known to significantly reduce traffic - whining about other people on bicycles actually making an effort to reduce traffic.
-Kurt
That's not the point of this thread, at all.

If there is a point, I was contrasting how much traffic there is now and how different it is from when I was younger (the C&V part). Also, the mix of traffic is very different than it was, too.

Almost no one in So Cal can commute to their jobs. This place is physically VAST and the suburban housing is typically 20 - 30 miles (one way) from most urban jobs.
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Old 10-02-22, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
That's not the point of this thread, at all.
It's not the point, but that's how it reads. Doubly so with the get-off-my-lawn attitude to electric assist anything, blaming the mode instead of the user. That's the same flawed logic drivers use to justify their anti-bike rants.

Half of the users in this thread would get eaten alive if a few cargo bike moms got wind of it.

-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
19 posts and only one of you kvetching luddites even mentioned protected bike lanes.
-Kurt
Name calling? I'll skip over that.

On my typical 15 mile ride, there is 2/3 mile of "protected" bike lane. That is preceded by and followed by stretches of "bike path". Were I to use them, those three sections would be the most dangerous portions of the ride. I do not use them. Here's examples of why I've made that choice.

An ebiker going well over 20 mph was riding southbound on the bike path. He blew by me (I was only going ~15 mph), passing me in the left (NB) lane, just as I was passing someone on their left in the SB lane.

A group of typically oblivious pedestrians were standing in and completely obstructing the north bound lane.

Just as the ebiker approached the pedestrians, one woman snapped a 180* about face just as the ebiker passed. The timing was perfect. They missed each other by only 1-2 inches.

He turned and yelled at her while not watching where he was going as he progressed about 100 feet south on a crowded bike path, but he never slowed. She unleashed a tirade of profanity at him as she proceeded to obstruct the southbound lane.

All that, as I was braking and had to come to a stop.

The uncivil nature of it all is memorable. What happened to stopping and asking, "Are you okay?" What happened to the adult version of, "Watch both ways before you cross?"

Here's another - our PBL has numerous driveways into the hotels and restaurants along the way. Cars have to stop in the street and wait for a break in the cycling traffic to cross the bike path. That is, IF they see you coming.

Finally, 3 different sections of the bike path require you to dismount and walk your bike. When you ride, there is an 8 mph posted speed limit. That same bike path is over run with pedestrians, skaters, scooters, ebikes, motorized skateboards and those motorized unicycle jobies. I just stay away.

I ride the roads, as I always have - my C&V approach to bike riding.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 10-03-22 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 10-03-22, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
It's not the point, but that's how it reads. Doubly so with the get-off-my-lawn attitude to electric assist anything, blaming the mode instead of the user. That's the same flawed logic drivers use to justify their anti-bike rants.
-Kurt
Kurt, I think you are reading into this things which are not there, like the "get off my lawn" and anti-electric assist anything comments. That is not in my writing. It's not the power generation method (human, battery. gasoline), it's the the volume of traffic, the loss of safe driving and increasing lack of civility.

As the roadways get more crowded, MORE civility is needed, MORE safety is need, not less. The thing is, the trend is headed the wrong way.



P.S. - I've never seen a cargo bike mom.

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Old 10-03-22, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
Name calling? I'll skip over that.
The moderators have apparently been lax as of recent about this amusing name abuse going about, so I see no reason I should silence my opinion about the curmudgeony that's going on here, provided it doesn't single any one user out.

Originally Posted by Bad Lag
On my typical ride, there is a mile or so of "protected" bike lane. That is preceded by and followed by stretches of "bike path"....
It sounds as if you are trying to judge every protected bike lane in existence over a single PBL that you haven't shared a photo of - automatically putting my position at a convenient (for you) disadvantage. It is impossible to have a fair debate when I don't know how good or bad your city has built them - do they have proper setback, what's the separation like, etc...

Also, what are you defining as a "bike path?" An unprotected bike lane? Dedicated and separated trail? Or one of those crappy and oh-so-common multiple-use-paths (a.k.a. glorified sidewalk) where everyone has an equal opportunity to get on each other's nerves?

-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
Kurt, I think you are reading into this things which are not there, like the anti-electric assist anything comment. That is not in my writing. It's not the power generation method (human, battery. gasoline), it's the the volume of traffic, the loss of safe driving and increasing lack of civility.
I really wasn't complaining about your original post as I was the replies. I especially concur about scofflaw driving. In many urban cores, mine (Miami) included, it's through the roof. Even those who don't ride and only drive should be keenly aware of this - just sit in the front of the queue in any left turn lane and you'll get overtaken on the green arrow by some wannabe rocketship blasting up the thru lane, two lanes to your right.

Hell, you'll get less road rage on a bicycle getting close-passed than driving a car at the speed limit at this point. The impatient [insert your choice uncouth word here]-heads behind you can at least attempt to pass a bicycle, but put a slow moving car in the way and the next stop light just might wind up with someone fist-pounding your window.

As for e-bikes and scooters, I do take issue with your phrasing - again, more so with the replies though - as it is not the mode at fault, but the users. Some idiots zipping around recklessly on electric assist devices is not a reason to say "that's why we can't have nice things" to legislate e-bikes away from the people who need them. There are other ways to sort out the mess that doesn't take the fun (or benefit) away from others.

Case in point, as much as I believe drivers are terrible and we should be severely limiting automobile use in our cities (and aiming for much better public transit in general), I don't hate the automobile. It has its place, and I'm not about to say we should abolish all personal automobiles because there are lots of terrible drivers of them. Yet, it seems perfectly OK to say the same of electric-assist devices, just like some of the more extreme bike advocates would like to throw every car on earth into a bottomless pit. Neither are solutions, they're just selfish.

It it a pain that that we have to deal with chucklepflucks abusing e-bikes and scooters? Yes. But this country is already woefully inept and unwilling to regulate and enforce licensed adult drivers wielding the largest and deadliest vehicles on our roadways. Don't expect law enforcement to do the same for electric bicycle and scooter riders, and especially don't expect fair enforcement either.

-Kurt

P.S.: John Forester, Grant Peterson, and Mario Confente.
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Old 10-03-22, 05:42 AM
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I recall riding in the mid-1970's and my brother, who was an active cyclist in the early 1960's, saying "too much traffic on the roads for safe riding anymore". Oh, how I wish we could go back to 1970's traffic density...

Originally Posted by jethin
little enforcement of road laws. People know itís la free-for-all and get away with
I feel THIS is a major contributing factor to driving behavior (among other things).

My friends wonder why I keep riding the same rail-trail near my home, day after day...
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Old 10-03-22, 06:53 AM
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Enough with the twitter spam.
There were some entrepreneurs doing a photo shoot on the bike path recently of fat tire motorized trikes recently. When motor bikes are bikes and trikes are bikes…next step is electric quad runners
its easier for kids these days to scroll through their smart phone feeds if they don’t have to pedal and everyone gets out of their way
my lawn is natives
and another thing https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-bikes/
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Old 10-03-22, 06:59 AM
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For me , bike paths are a "no go" . I found my temper flaring up every time I rode on one . Apparently , in my area , they are for folks walking three abreast , walking dogs with retractable leashes fully extended , teaching the kids how to skate , or just a perfect place to hold a community meeting/ get together. It seemed to be a problem with ME because I was the only one getting angry. I now ride bike lanes or roads that are "bike friendly" most of the time. The roads are dangerous and , yes , there are bad drivers , but I don't find myself so frustrated. It was fantastic during the "lock down" in my area and I took full advantage . Now it seems back to normal , lots of traffic , and those that are distracted.Saturday was a fantastic ride and it was very busy with beautiful Southern California weather , the roads were busy , the beach was very busy but all and all , 40 miles of bliss! I ride as defensively as possible and try to remember why I ride my bike...... to enjoy the ride. Ride On, Be Safe ...and Kind
Regarding E-bikes , my wife has physical limitations that prevented her from joining me on some of my rides. We have been together for 50 years and always cycled together ,including 2-3 years of "no car" . A couple of years ago we were at the Trek Shop in Ventura and she spotted a Townie step through beach cruiser that had and electric assist (no throttle) mid drive system . It has an internal geared hub instead of a derailleur and hydraulic disc brakes, and you HAVE to pedal the bike to go. She can select the level of assist depending on how she is feeling, it is imperative that she not over exert. We now enjoy riding together and she easily keeps up with me , even passing me on climbs. It has been a blessing for her and I am sure there are others .

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Old 10-03-22, 07:01 AM
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More happy families replacing their SUV trips on cargo bikes. One less car = less traffic = safer roads.










-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
For me , bike paths are a "no go" . I found my temper flaring up every time I rode on one . Apparently , in my area , they are for folks walking three abreast , walking dogs with retractable leashes fully extended , teaching the kids how to skate , or just a perfect place to hold a community meeting/ get together.
I don't even give those facilities the dignity of being called a "bike path." They're a MUP (multiple use path), which ought to be slang for "wide sidewalk used as an excuse not to build proper, grade-separated protected bicycle facilities," because that's all a MUP is. They try to accommodate everyone, fail to do so by any stretch of the imagination, and in doing so create a low-speed version of the same conflicts between drivers and riders.

MUPs are car infrastructure, just like pedestrian bridges are car infrastructure. Both marginalize their users to ultimately encourage more automobile traffic and higher speeds. They only exist because someone at a city's public works cared only to get people on bikes and people on foot out of the way, not to accommodate pedestrians and micromobility (I include bicycles in that term, FYI) in any meaningful, respectful way.

Originally Posted by Classtime
All signs of keeping conversations in their dedicated forums was lost when this thread wasn't immediately sent to A&S - where it should have gone in the first place.

-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 07:19 AM
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I live in a semi-rural area. The roads here are busier, the drivers are going faster, and some of the drivers are more aggressive. I have found minor improvement by switching my vintage bikes from period lighting to retro-styled LEDs (or else LED bulbs for original lamps). I get a little more space on the road running a hazard flasher LED in back than I did with the dim, original bulbs. The worst offenders are still just as close and fast as ever. But I will say that the LED flasher seems to get most drivers' attention when they overtake me on the road. I think it's worth the upgrade if you're riding on busy public roads.
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Old 10-03-22, 07:22 AM
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Puch Maxis with a 49cc gas engine came in 1, 1.5, and 2hp versions that supported speeds from 20 to 30 mph.

Ebikes come in different classes - 1,2,and 3 - and generally have a top speed range from 20-30 mph. There are apparently some that can hit 45-50.



If I convert my '79 F150 to electric, can I drive it in the bike lane?
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Old 10-03-22, 07:23 AM
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Yes, some may conflate Ebikes of various levels with licensed mopeds and other small gas-cycles. But when those gas-cycles start using marked and signed bike lanes as passing lanes to bypass jammed traffic (due to city lane reductions which were supposed to have zero effect on capacity!!!), THEIR RIDERS JUST BECOME VILLAINS!
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Old 10-03-22, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
I don't even give those facilities the dignity of being called a "bike path." They're a MUP (multiple use path), which ought to be slang for "wide sidewalk used as an excuse not to build proper, grade-separated protected bicycle facilities," because that's all a MUP is. They try to accommodate everyone, fail to do so by any stretch of the imagination, and in doing so create a low-speed version of the same conflicts between drivers and riders.

MUPs are car infrastructure, just like pedestrian bridges are car infrastructure. Both marginalize their users to ultimately encourage more automobile traffic and higher speeds. They only exist because someone at a city's public works cared only to get people on bikes and people on foot out of the way, not to accommodate pedestrians and micromobility (I include bicycles in that term, FYI) in any meaningful, respectful way.



All signs of keeping conversations in their dedicated forums was lost when this thread wasn't immediately sent to A&S - where it should have gone in the first place.

-Kurt
It is funny, sort of. In the local paper they announced the opening of a new bike path that joins the water park to the Government center with a beautifully constructed bridge over the dry creek bed . They painted separation zones clearly marked for pedestrians and bikes. The photo in the paper showed it crowded from edge to edge and not one bicycle! The lines meant nothing.
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Old 10-03-22, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
It is funny, sort of. In the local paper they announced the opening of a new bike path that joins the water park to the Government center with a beautifully constructed bridge over the dry creek bed . They painted separation zones clearly marked for pedestrians and bikes. The photo in the paper showed it crowded from edge to edge and not one bicycle! The lines meant nothing.
It just reinforces the old adage - paint is not protection. Nor is it a solution.

-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by BFisher
Ebikes come in different classes - 1,2,and 3 - and generally have a top speed range from 20-30 mph. There are apparently some that can hit 45-50.
Class 3 is throttle-only, topping out at 28. They're generally banned by most municipalities on dedicated bike infrastructure.

Anything over Class 3 is not a bicycle. It's a moped or motorcycle. Period.

-Kurt
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Old 10-03-22, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
For me , bike paths are a "no go" . I found my temper flaring up every time I rode on one . Apparently , in my area , they are for folks walking three abreast , walking dogs with retractable leashes fully extended , teaching the kids how to skate , or just a perfect place to hold a community meeting/ get together. It seemed to be a problem with ME because I was the only one getting angry. I now ride bike lanes or roads that are "bike friendly" most of the time.
You are mixing 'MUP' up with 'bike path'. Dont ride MUPs and expect to ride fast- they are multi-use and not intended to allow cyclists to stretch their legs and ride hard.
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Old 10-03-22, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
More happy families replacing their SUV trips on cargo bikes. One less car = less traffic = safer roads.
-Kurt
Really, the twitter spam is over the top at this point.
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Old 10-03-22, 07:45 AM
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I've also noticed that traffic is worse than ever. But, I noticed that drivers seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum. I get very polite ones and psychos. There seems to be no middle ground. What really pisses me off are bus drivers. Back in the day, they were probably the most courteous. Now, they're horrible. That said, I've had more close calls with other cyclists not obeying the traffic rules than cars. I got into cycling because not many people were doing it. Now, it's insanity.
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