Sharing the road and the four-foot law
12-21-22, 02:45 PM
#76
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I'm not terribly surprised--people in that place seem to like a fight.
Never ridden there, but I did break up an argument between a ticket person and a customer in the Montreal Metro in the late 1980s. My then-wife and I were in line to get tickets to ride the train and in those days, you had to buy them from a human being in a glass booth. The woman ahead of us had begrudgingly paid for a ticket when she was asserting she had already paid once. For some reason, the system then was that the seller gave you a paper ticket you had to put into a fare box and then the ticket taker would unlock the turnstile. For reasons I couldn't quite get, the woman in line was refusing to put the ticket in the fare box, leaving it under the window of the booth, and the ticket taker was refusing to unlock the turnstile until she put the ticket in the fare box. I listened to this fascinating Francophone vs. Anglophone debate for about a minute during which we could not buy tickets to enter, all the meantime listening to trains down in the tunnel departing without us. Finally, I just reached around the woman, picked up the ticket, and dumped it in the fare box, then announced two tickets please. They both looked at me in shock, and then I swear they both looked deflated because I took away their argument. Neither of them said a word to me, but we finally got through the turnstile.
Never ridden there, but I did break up an argument between a ticket person and a customer in the Montreal Metro in the late 1980s. My then-wife and I were in line to get tickets to ride the train and in those days, you had to buy them from a human being in a glass booth. The woman ahead of us had begrudgingly paid for a ticket when she was asserting she had already paid once. For some reason, the system then was that the seller gave you a paper ticket you had to put into a fare box and then the ticket taker would unlock the turnstile. For reasons I couldn't quite get, the woman in line was refusing to put the ticket in the fare box, leaving it under the window of the booth, and the ticket taker was refusing to unlock the turnstile until she put the ticket in the fare box. I listened to this fascinating Francophone vs. Anglophone debate for about a minute during which we could not buy tickets to enter, all the meantime listening to trains down in the tunnel departing without us. Finally, I just reached around the woman, picked up the ticket, and dumped it in the fare box, then announced two tickets please. They both looked at me in shock, and then I swear they both looked deflated because I took away their argument. Neither of them said a word to me, but we finally got through the turnstile.
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12-22-22, 11:03 AM
#78
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It has been over 30 years since the late 1980's in Quebec. Things have changed. Your experience today would not be the same. Riding in Quebec today is pretty darn good except for the condition of some of the roads, but the police are strict, no riding in double pace lines allowed and groups of more than 15 cyclists are not permitted unless it is in a ride organized with police permission. Driver comportment has improved greatly in the last 10 years. Quebec has always been a hotspot for cycling in Canada. This year's Tour de France is instructive: 4 Canadian riders, 3 from Quebec and the 4th who happens to live in Quebec
Is there less of the francophone vs. anglophone stuff going on now?
12-23-22, 12:28 PM
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Same here. Mid 90s. I was touring into Quebec from New York and exited Vermont. A lot of mean spirited close passes. Read a Quebec newspaper headline about a cyclist hit from behind so hard on a 2-lane roadway that spread him and his bike out over 100 yards. I could easily see why after only a short time there. So I bailed.
12-24-22, 08:03 PM
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yeah, sharing the road, ain't always so pretty
12-24-22, 08:50 PM
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I'm typically in the DC area for over a week in January for TRB & NCUTCD. I've discovered the separated bike lanes in DC can sometimes not be cleared of ice and snow for several days after the general travel lanes are plowed and cleared, and in those situations I use a lane with other traffic, even in heavy traffic conditions. And I receive zero negative feedback from other drivers, as they can see the crud in those lanes and why I'm using the other available lanes.
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12-28-22, 09:53 AM
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That's what I've often thought... I don't mind close passes as long as the vehicle is moving slowly. I'd much rather have a 2' pass at 20 MPH than a 4' pass at 60 MPH.
12-28-22, 11:13 AM
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Recently New Jersey passed a law making it mandatory for motor vehicles to give bicyclists at least four feet of room. Great.
However, I usually see cyclists on a clean 6-foot (or wider) shoulder riding all the way left, close to the shoulder line. Why? To be in compliance, cars then need to go over their left-hand lane line / center line (and maybe rumble strips) unnecessarily, because the four feet of clearance can come from the cyclists if they are considerate riders.
I drive a car and ride a bike. "Share the road" should work both ways.
However, I usually see cyclists on a clean 6-foot (or wider) shoulder riding all the way left, close to the shoulder line. Why? To be in compliance, cars then need to go over their left-hand lane line / center line (and maybe rumble strips) unnecessarily, because the four feet of clearance can come from the cyclists if they are considerate riders.
I drive a car and ride a bike. "Share the road" should work both ways.
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12-29-22, 09:36 AM
#84
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These from the link provided by njkayaker Cyclist need to take note of the legalities and consider liability they assume when doing things that aren't quite the law but seem safer to them. In an accident that goes to the courts, these things will matter. And in a "share the blame" state like I live in, then if I am found in violation of any rules and regulation, I will be assessed a share of the blame whether those violations where material to the accident or not. And that might drastically reduce or even nullify any awards I or my estate may have received.
Thankfully in Mississippi, bicycles are vehicles.
.” N.J.S.A. 39:4-14.2. Bicyclists do not have special privileges on a roadway’s shoulder. Indeed, a bicycle rider is directed to ride on the furthest right hand side of the roadway, not on the roadway’s shoulder. The Motor Vehicle Code does not designate the roadway’s shoulder as a bicycle lane.9
- Bicycles are NOT vehicles even though a bicycle rider on a roadway is vested with all the “rights” and “duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle." This is somewhat crazy classification for bicyclists putting us in a legal limbo. It similar to the idea that civil unions are the same as a marriage even though they aren't. New Jersey leaves it bicyclists in a precarious legal position by not defining a bicycle as a vehicle. It's time to ask that the Legislature call bicycles what they are. Vehicles with special privileges.
12-29-22, 01:17 PM
#85
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Re: legal status of bikes in NJ, I'm somewhat curious about your concerns, and how you think NJ places bikes in limbo.
The law clearly gives bicyclists (I don't consider things like cars or bikes to have rights) all the same rights and obligations of motor vehicle drivers, despite not considering bicycles vehicles. IMO it's a distinction without a difference. However, if you have specific examples of how this distinction can work against bicyclists, I'd like to hear them.
In some cases the distinction can work for bicyclists, and here's a specific one as applied by courts inn New York State. If a bicyclist who also has a valid driver's license is cited and convicted for a moving violation he can ask that points NOT be assigned against his license. This is because NYS courts apply an equal protection logic, so a bicyclist withn a driver's license isn't penalized more that one without, since no clicense is necessary. I don't know how other states handle this issue, but at least here, Limbo works FOR the bicyclist, not against.
Note to anyone cited in NYS -- You have to make the request because officers often (usually) fail to note that the violation involved a bicycle rather than a car. FWIW the one time I dealt with this personally, I brought it up to the prosecutor pre-trial and ended up with a dismissal because he thougth the judge would laugh at him. So, no points and no fine.
The law clearly gives bicyclists (I don't consider things like cars or bikes to have rights) all the same rights and obligations of motor vehicle drivers, despite not considering bicycles vehicles. IMO it's a distinction without a difference. However, if you have specific examples of how this distinction can work against bicyclists, I'd like to hear them.
In some cases the distinction can work for bicyclists, and here's a specific one as applied by courts inn New York State. If a bicyclist who also has a valid driver's license is cited and convicted for a moving violation he can ask that points NOT be assigned against his license. This is because NYS courts apply an equal protection logic, so a bicyclist withn a driver's license isn't penalized more that one without, since no clicense is necessary. I don't know how other states handle this issue, but at least here, Limbo works FOR the bicyclist, not against.
Note to anyone cited in NYS -- You have to make the request because officers often (usually) fail to note that the violation involved a bicycle rather than a car. FWIW the one time I dealt with this personally, I brought it up to the prosecutor pre-trial and ended up with a dismissal because he thougth the judge would laugh at him. So, no points and no fine.
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“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
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FB
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
12-29-22, 01:23 PM
#86
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These from the link provided by njkayaker Cyclist need to take note of the legalities and consider liability they assume when doing things that aren't quite the law but seem safer to them. In an accident that goes to the courts, these things will matter. And in a "share the blame" state like I live in, then if I am found in violation of any rules and regulation, I will be assessed a share of the blame whether those violations where material to the accident or not. And that might drastically reduce or even nullify any awards I or my estate may have received.
Thankfully in Mississippi, bicycles are vehicles.
Thankfully in Mississippi, bicycles are vehicles.
