Polling Beliefs about Bicycles on Roads and Sidewalks
#26
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
While you guys are debating the laws of physics that apply theoretically, don't forget to check in with reality.
What really happens when a cyclist collides with a pedestrian: someone gets hurt.
What really happens when two pedestrians collide: "Oops. Sorry."
I am honestly surprised that this debate is even taking place here. I thought it was only non-cycling drivers that needed education about the rules of the road.
What really happens when a cyclist collides with a pedestrian: someone gets hurt.
What really happens when two pedestrians collide: "Oops. Sorry."
I am honestly surprised that this debate is even taking place here. I thought it was only non-cycling drivers that needed education about the rules of the road.
There's nothing theoretical about the physics here--the physics are why the bicyclist hitting the pedestrian causes so much more injury than the pedestrian hitting the pedestrian. That's apparently counter-intuitive for some people, hence the explanation.
In reality, pedestrians don't get hit by bicyclists enough that people have any understanding of what can happen. That's because almost no one rides bicycles on sidewalks. I guess you missed the part of my post that suggested the layout of sidewalks makes it easier to collide with pedestrians than on roads.
And just so you know, in some states, the "rules of the road" allow adults to ride bikes on sidewalks. You must be new here if you haven't seen someone defend sidewalk riding on this forum before. I won't do it, but I'm not going to tell other people not to do it when I don't ride where they ride. Several people have stated on this forum that sidewalk riding is normal in parts of Florida, for example.
#27
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
Here's a place where I will ride on the sidewalk. I've tried it on the road, my 25mm tires don't care for it. Definitely scary when wet.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8159...7i16384!8i8192
I do ignore this sign, however:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8140...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8159...7i16384!8i8192
I do ignore this sign, however:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8140...7i16384!8i8192
Last edited by livedarklions; 02-13-23 at 03:52 PM.
#28
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,256
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 412 Post(s)
Liked 1,389 Times
in
657 Posts
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#29
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
The issue with a statement like that is that the car vs. pedestrian and the car vs. bicycle numbers dwarf all bike vs pedestrian and bike vs. bike numbers.
Basically the number of pedestrians hit by motor vehicles in NYC in any given year is 3-4 times that bike vs ped number for 2011-19. If you're using the NY Post as your source, of course they are going to make it sound so grim. 2250 over 8 years in NYC is actually a relatively trivial number, especially when there's no reason to assume that most of those resulted in major injuries.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,818
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3238 Post(s)
Liked 1,013 Times
in
608 Posts
From the standpoint of the pedestrian, you are wrong here.
Even if the weight is identical, the kinetic energy of the bicyclist going 10-15 mph is much higher than the pedestrian going 3-4 mph. Forcing bicyclists to ride at walking speed would be absurd, no one would keep to it. Also, sidewalks are not generally constructed with sightlines when entering in mind. For example, a pedestrian may be emerging from a door that exits directly onto the sidewalk, or stepping out from behind shrubbery. Finally, pedestrians often have strollers, walkers, canes, etc. that make it difficult for them to dodge bicycle traffic. Sidewalks are designed for a walking pace, anything that goes faster is really out of place there.
Even if the weight is identical, the kinetic energy of the bicyclist going 10-15 mph is much higher than the pedestrian going 3-4 mph. Forcing bicyclists to ride at walking speed would be absurd, no one would keep to it. Also, sidewalks are not generally constructed with sightlines when entering in mind. For example, a pedestrian may be emerging from a door that exits directly onto the sidewalk, or stepping out from behind shrubbery. Finally, pedestrians often have strollers, walkers, canes, etc. that make it difficult for them to dodge bicycle traffic. Sidewalks are designed for a walking pace, anything that goes faster is really out of place there.
Likes For rydabent:
#31
Banned.
Check when the city of Palo Alto in California banned bicyclists from using the streets and forced them to use the sidewalks. The increase in bike and pedestrian collisions that resulted forced the city officials to reverse their ban.
It comes down to expectations and someone walking out of a store to the enter the sidewalk public space is not expecting a 10+ mph bicycle and so will walk into their path. Same thing happens all the time even with pedestrians walking on shared use bike paths where the walker is busy talking to a friend or checking messages on their phones and not paying attention to what is around them or approaching from any direction. The old phrase about someone not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time applies to 100% of people when engaged with a cell phone.
It comes down to expectations and someone walking out of a store to the enter the sidewalk public space is not expecting a 10+ mph bicycle and so will walk into their path. Same thing happens all the time even with pedestrians walking on shared use bike paths where the walker is busy talking to a friend or checking messages on their phones and not paying attention to what is around them or approaching from any direction. The old phrase about someone not being able to walk and chew gum at the same time applies to 100% of people when engaged with a cell phone.
#33
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
So not the point. Even if it's not congested, sidewalks are full of blind corners and crossings where pedestrians can just step right out in front of you without warning.
#34
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
I lived on this street-please tell me how you were supposed to ride on the sidewalk there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4176...7i16384!8i8192
Pretty sure you're misremembering the origin story of John Forester.
Last edited by livedarklions; 02-14-23 at 02:03 PM.
#35
Senior Member
Where I live the laws are pretty clear. No bikes on sidewalks in the downtown area, otherwise you are allowed to ride on the sidewalk. Cyclists are also afforded all laws for the road (and must abide by them btw) and are urged to ride on the road whenever it is safe to do so.
#36
Banned.
Citation needed. I lived in Palo Alto for several years and never heard of such a thing.
I lived on this street-please tell me how you were supposed to ride on the sidewalk there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4176...7i16384!8i8192
Pretty sure you're misremembering the origin story of John Forester.
I lived on this street-please tell me how you were supposed to ride on the sidewalk there.
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4176...7i16384!8i8192
Pretty sure you're misremembering the origin story of John Forester.
#37
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
I lived in Palo Alto when the ordinance was passed. I also worked with the non-motorized traffic (bicyclists and pedestrians) group at the then Division of Highways and I covered all 58 counties in terms of bicycle planning from the inception of this function. This has nothing to do with John Forester who became an advocate for safe bicycling behavior and routes. The Division of Highways and city and county engineers created many extremely dangerous bike lanes that put bicyclists unexpectedly in the path of automobiles. One prime example was when the Golden Gate Bridge would have one side closed and so bicyclists had to cross Highway 101 north of the bridge which I found myself having to do to get to San Francisco on my trips to Pasadena.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the Palo Alto ordinance was that it banned bicycles from the streets that were paralleled by so-called sidepaths (not sidewalks, per se). That was actually a small number of streets, so the ordinance didn't actually send bikes to sidewalks on most streets. There's also a lot of streets in Palo Alto that don't have sidewalks at all.
l
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Oahu, HI
Posts: 1,387
Bikes: 89 Paramount OS 84 Fuji Touring Series III New! 2013 Focus Izalco Ergoride
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 67 Times
in
50 Posts
I suspect a large percentage of drivers want cyclists off "their" roads, they don't care if it's a sidewalk per se. But that's probably considered a socially incorrect answer so they might not be truthful if asked by a pollster. Some may sincerely believe it's for cyclist's own safety -- that might be a good question ("where do you think it is safest to ride a bike?"). I doubt they consider pedestrian safety relative to bikes.
scott s.
.
scott s.
.
#39
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,442
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 285 Times
in
190 Posts
Some roads are worthy of fear.
Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
One 6-Lane highway in particular (and a couple of 4-Lane roads) in my community would be suicide in a travel lane. People use the sidewalks or meander the back streets to avoid those roadways. It is perfectly LEGAL to ride a bike on them, but literally NO ONE in my community is stupid enough to do it. We have plenty of cyclists here of all types and capabilities. Even the hardcore roadies avoid those roadways.
If I were one of those cyclists with "something to prove" to motorists, then I would be certain that all my affairs were in order before proving my point on those roads.
.
.
.
Just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
One 6-Lane highway in particular (and a couple of 4-Lane roads) in my community would be suicide in a travel lane. People use the sidewalks or meander the back streets to avoid those roadways. It is perfectly LEGAL to ride a bike on them, but literally NO ONE in my community is stupid enough to do it. We have plenty of cyclists here of all types and capabilities. Even the hardcore roadies avoid those roadways.
If I were one of those cyclists with "something to prove" to motorists, then I would be certain that all my affairs were in order before proving my point on those roads.
.
.
.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 02-21-23 at 11:05 AM.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,865
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3573 Post(s)
Liked 933 Times
in
705 Posts
I ride on these "dangerous" roads daily, 4-lane road with no pavement to the right of the fog line and a speed limit of 45-mph, meaning they're going at least 55. The vast majority of other people on bikes along this road ride on the sidewalk.
The sad fact is, if I and a few other cyclists never rode their bike on these type of roads, then it would become de facto law that cyclists are not allowed on roadways. That's just human nature.
BTW, I'm really glad that mirrors don't suffer from overuse by looking at them
.
The sad fact is, if I and a few other cyclists never rode their bike on these type of roads, then it would become de facto law that cyclists are not allowed on roadways. That's just human nature.
BTW, I'm really glad that mirrors don't suffer from overuse by looking at them

.
#41
20+mph Commuter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Posts: 7,442
Bikes: Surly LHT, Surly Lowside, a folding bike, and a beater.
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1393 Post(s)
Liked 285 Times
in
190 Posts
No joke! Not to start some mirror debate (again) but I couldn't drive or bike without at least one mirror. In fact, often while walking I am looking for my mirror. Walking against traffic (as required by law here) eliminates the need for mirrors.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,865
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3573 Post(s)
Liked 933 Times
in
705 Posts
The funny thing is that when I first started running years ago, I would occasionally look at my watch, but as I looked down my brain automatically switched to "Checking the Mirror" mode, thinking I was checking my Six O'Clock, then having to realize I was checking my pace or distance....I eventually retrained my brain, but it still happens, once in a while to this day, especially if I haven't ran in a while
.

.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 37,916
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5360 Post(s)
Liked 1,804 Times
in
1,021 Posts
I don't know if you found any polls, or are considering starting one, but I suspect that either way there will be issues of selection bias and other skews.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
#44
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8185 Post(s)
Liked 9,087 Times
in
5,052 Posts
I don't know if you found any polls, or are considering starting one, but I suspect that either way there will be issues of selection bias and other skews.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
I used to argue with people on BF who would explain why they were riding on sidewalks, now I only do so if they try to argue that everyone else should and/or if they claim that sidewalk riding is generally safer than riding on the road. I just think people are better judges of the safest way to ride where they do than I am.
#45
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 136
Bikes: Trek Émonda SL 5, Trek Checkpoint SL 5, Giant Trance X 2, Trek Farley
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times
in
47 Posts
I don't know if you found any polls, or are considering starting one, but I suspect that either way there will be issues of selection bias and other skews.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
Polls often have skewed results either intentional or not, based on which questions were asked, how they were phrased and who was asked.
I imagine that if you asked the mom of young children about riding on the sidewalk and then an older person in NYC you'd get very different answers. The problem is that polls tend to posit things in binary terms, but life is more nuanced and often, neither answer is right.
Skew resulting from phrasing is probably inevitable, but I would be okay with it as long as the phrasing supports supports the question I'm really interested in, which is twofold:
- How prevalent is the misconception that bicycles do not belong on public roadways?
- Among drivers
- Among members of law enforcement organizations
- Is that prevalence significant enough to justify an active education campaign?