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Another Peloton clobbered by pickup truck, in AZ. 2 dead so far.

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Another Peloton clobbered by pickup truck, in AZ. 2 dead so far.

Old 02-26-23, 07:22 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Doesn't matter for the issue at hand.

There was broad daylight and no sightline issue, so ANY driver had plenty of time to see the obstruction in front of him with plenty of time to stop.

If you consider the minimum space that 12 moving bikes can occupy, it's obvious that there was considerable distance between the first and last impact. So, either great speed, or brakes not applied until immediately before or after the first ride was hit.

Best case, reckless indifference manslaughter. This comes from someone who generally opposes criminalizing accidents.
I do not know about the current case, was there a video or something?

WRT to the posted video, riding 3-4 abreast taking the entire lane isn't legal or safe where I live. There were a few instances where riders went into the second lane to the left. Riders were wrong but lucky to be alive in my view.

Driver frequently text or even watch movies and generally do not pay attention. Right? Yes, the driver was at fault. Should be punished to the full extent. Two humans are still dead. The real tragedy is the lack of a bike lane on the bridge but there is a 20 foot wide center section, for what? Cops to sit?
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Old 02-26-23, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
. The real tragedy is the lack of a bike lane on the bridge but there is a 20 foot wide center section, for what? Cops to sit?
That alignment is a freeway a couple miles north of there so maybe they built the bridge to freeway specs for future proofing but it's definitely a waste to not use some of that space for separated bike lanes for now.
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Old 02-26-23, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
That alignment is a freeway a couple miles north of there so maybe they built the bridge to freeway specs for future proofing but it's definitely a waste to not use some of that space for separated bike lanes for now.
There should be a bike lane.

Where I live, we are forced to walk across the bridges. It sucks. Almost no effort to accommodate cyclists. On that bridge in Az, there is plenty of space for a cycling lane.
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Old 02-26-23, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
That alignment is a freeway a couple miles north of there so maybe they built the bridge to freeway specs for future proofing but it's definitely a waste to not use some of that space for separated bike lanes for now.
Loop 303 is expected to eventually be extended south to connect with planned SR 30 and beyond, possibly all the way to I-11 or I-8, either along the Cotton Lane alignment or a nearby corridor. Despite its width, the existing bridge may be too narrow for a future Loop 303, but seems designed for a 6-lane cross-section plus a median and bike lanes. Edit: It could be wide enough for future Loop 303 use, but the sidewalks would probably be replaced with barriers. Yet another edit: The corridor maps are on the ADOT website at https://azdot.gov/planning/transport.../maps-loop-303 and https://azdot.gov/node/14412

Unfortunately, a physically separated facility would probably end up like many similar bikeways in the Valley - full of dirt, gravel, glass, and debris, especially in a semi-rural area such as where the crash occurred. Agencies promise that they'll commit to the notably increased workload of keeping an adjacent separated facility clean, but all too often don't get around to doing so when staff, funding, and equipment limitations kick in. Even the central Mesa sidepath has places with noticeable crud.

I'd also speculate that the riding group might choose a different roadway if such a facility was installed, as at their speeds they may not want to be confined between the separating devices/objects and the curb in case an obstruction might be encountered. Also at those speeds striking a curb or channelizing device could cause a multi-rider pack crash.
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Old 02-26-23, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
There should be a bike lane.
The most recent aerial photography on the Maricopa County website (https://gis.maricopa.gov/GIO/Histori...ial/index.html) shows standard bike lanes in both directions (NB & SB) from MC85 to just south of the Gila River bridge, with bike lane markings near MC 85. However, south of the bridge Cotton Lane is a 2-lane road with a shoulder only in the northbound direction, which is unusual. It may explain why the riders ride north on Cotton on their weekly loop.

There is the possibility the motor vehicle driver followed the pack up the 2-lane segment, and then passed when reaching the bridge - and failed to do it properly.
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Old 02-26-23, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I do not know about the current case, was there a video or something?

WRT to the posted video, riding 3-4 abreast taking the entire lane isn't legal or safe where I live.

?
How is it not safe?
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Old 02-26-23, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur

There is the possibility the motor vehicle driver followed the pack up the 2-lane segment, and then passed when reaching the bridge - and failed to do it properly.
The available video shows the emergency vehicles further down the bridge than that scenario would likely find them.
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Old 02-26-23, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
How is it not safe?
WTF. I told you 3 times just in this thread.
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Old 02-26-23, 09:51 PM
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I think I understand what happened. I heard that it started at the start of the bridge, which makes sense.
The pack was just getting started, so was bunched and 3 wide. They would be talking to each other. Since few if any have a mirror, then only the back guys would notice traffic coming. The shoulder was good enough for one line of bikes.
Then for 100 yards the shoulder narrows for the barrier, before the bridge. So the bikes have to squeeze closer to the lane line.

The truck is pulling a trailer, somebody said. Likely would be a wide work trailer. The inner left pavement has but a few inches outside the yellow line.
So a suicide squeeze happens, where neither can give way and both are using the full lane. So the blunder just happened.
IF there was a trailer, then the delayed reaction was also inevitable. That could explain the length of the mayhem. Only the ones by the lane divider line were hit.

==========
Then I looked at the RCMoeur link to the historical aerial photos. EXACTLY where I start the accident, is a SUV pulling a TRAILER. It's right wheel is within a foot of the right side lane line of the left lane.

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Old 02-27-23, 03:30 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur
On this morning's group ride, one of the people said (which I have not yet been able to corroborate) that the striking vehicle was pulling a trailer. This could bring up added possible scenarios of negligence: i.e. inexperience or inattention in passing the pack and then changing lanes while the trailer was still alongside the group. Again, this if so this would be fully the driver's error or fault, as a driver towing a trailer assumes full responsibility for the reasonably safe transport of that trailer. I distinctly recall on past rides out to Saguaro or Canyon Lake drivers passing me with ample room, and then erroneously moving back into the lane before their trailer had fully passed me, resulting in an unexpectedly close inspection of their right-side wheels or their boat's sideboards. And it didn't take malicious intent - just errors and misjudgements on their part.
So far we don't have a photo of the vehicle, bicycles, trailer, etc, so we don't know how and why the riders were struck.

My experience passing bicycles while towing is that the trailer does quite well following the vehicle. But, that may well depend on the pace. So, if a driver is driving 50 MPH, and a cyclist is riding 10 MPH, then it is like passing a stationary object. However, the clips of rides posted above the cyclists are really hauling along. And, thus it is more like passing another vehicle on the road. And, thus one must plan for space of the vehicle and the trailer.

Nonetheless, in an early morning ride. Presumably with very little traffic, the pickup shouldn't have needed to cut back in for quite some distance.

There is the issue that pickups are about 6.5 feet wide. Trailers can be 8 feet wide to 8.5 feet wide. So, one can never forget the trailer is back behind.

Riding solo, I'd probably have wanted to jump onto the sidewalk across that bridge (nothing better than a protected bike path). Yet there is no access from the main road.

The cyclists in the video above aren't trying to ride on shoulders, or even in bike paths.

Yet, that also appears to be an annoying road that jumps from 4 lanes with shoulders to 2 lanes without shoulders to a divided highway, all in the course of a couple of miles.

It appears to be marked at 45 MPH at the bridge which is relatively low, but not unexpected for an urban/industrial area, especially as the road varies so much.
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Old 02-27-23, 05:23 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
WTF. I told you 3 times just in this thread.
No, you haven't. You've engaged in ridiculous conjecture, such as heavy traffic and 18 wheelers obscuring the view, and you've told motorcycle stories, but you have not demonstrated how riding 3 abreast is unsafe.
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Old 02-27-23, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I think I understand what happened. I heard that it started at the start of the bridge, which makes sense.
The pack was just getting started, so was bunched and 3 wide. They would be talking to each other. Since few if any have a mirror, then only the back guys would notice traffic coming. The shoulder was good enough for one line of bikes.
Then for 100 yards the shoulder narrows for the barrier, before the bridge. So the bikes have to squeeze closer to the lane line.

The truck is pulling a trailer, somebody said. Likely would be a wide work trailer. The inner left pavement has but a few inches outside the yellow line.
So a suicide squeeze happens, where neither can give way and both are using the full lane. So the blunder just happened.
IF there was a trailer, then the delayed reaction was also inevitable. That could explain the length of the mayhem. Only the ones by the lane divider line were hit.

==========
Then I looked at the RCMoeur link to the photo survey map. EXACTLY where I start the accident, is a SUV pulling a TRAILER. It's right wheel is within a foot of the right side lane line of the left lane.

Likely a wide work trailer now, instead of heavy traffic and an 18 wheeler?

The concentration of emergency vehicles is at the apex of the bridge. By my rough calculations that's 800-1000 feet from the point you referenced, if I understand you correctly. At 55 MPH it takes a semi about 220 feet to stop.
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Old 02-27-23, 05:46 AM
  #63  
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I deal a lot with these work trailers around here and they are a serious thing to consider when on the roads.
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Old 02-27-23, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
How is it not safe?
You can die.

Law is single file unless there is no traffic, then, we can ride two abreast staying as far right as possible in my state. Unbelievablty, we have go walk bridges. 3-4 abreast going into the second lane is risky. Safety is relative term taking into consideration one's acceptance of risk. I would never ride that bridge as shown in that video and certainly would not go into the second lane, it is too risky by my standards and in my state, the law. That is my opinion. I really don't care about your response, that is my opinion and my beef against cycling clubs in general. Two abreast is also Az law.....see below for Az law. I have zero interest in arguing with you. Law is the law. 3-4 abreast with occasional cross overs into the second lane is very dangerous.

28-815. Riding on roadway and bicycle path; bicycle path usage

A. A person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:

1. If overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.

2. If preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

3. If reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals or surface hazards.

4. If the lane in which the person is operating the bicycle is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.

B. Persons riding bicycles on a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.

C. A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D of this section or are otherwise allowed by state or local authorities.

D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle, including a neighborhood occupantless electric vehicle, in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.

E. Subsection D of this section does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority.
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Old 02-27-23, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by debade
These conversations are troubling to me. The shoulder width has nothing to do with a collision. The existence of a shoulder is not important. Nor is the number of cyclists abreast.

The motorists need to be traveling at a speed which allows avoidance by changing lanes or slowing down. My only question about the collision is why the motorists did not drive defensively. The infrastructure is not relevant.
I think you’re entirely correct when it comes to assigning fault for the accident.

However, the shoulder width and the waste of all that space does definitively seem to be an issue in terms of designing infrastructure which promotes safety for cyclists, and reducing the likelihood of such accidents

we could do a lot better in building cycling friendly infrastructure in the US, and re striping the lanes on this bridge would appear to be an example of where we can do better, at a very low cost, if we gave more thought to cyclists in our road designs.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:03 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Mtracer

My guess is distracted and if the driver is younger, I'd bet on texting while driving.
Or drinking and driving. We have a disproportionate amount of DUI accidents in and around Phoenix, and many of these are head-on collisions - on the freeways - shortly after a drunk enters the freeway via an off-ramp. Of course, this tragedy could also have been caused by any number of factors: road-rage, lack of sleep, inattentiveness in general, or lack of spatial awareness. We just don't know yet. Having said that...

There may be a lot of problems in western WA (where I lived and rode until moving last year) - but drivers messing with cyclists was never one of them. Here? I'm honestly concerned about being mowed down by a vehicle from behind, or clipped while riding in a bike lane on nearly every ride. This kind of fear is not typical of me; it's sobering knowing I can stop at every light and stop sign, signal my turns well in advance, and generally try not to piss people off - and still, the likelihood of getting creamed seems almost inevitable.

When you've got 90% of the drivers doing 50mph+ in your own neighborhood (speed limit: 30mph), well - just imagine what these clowns are reaching for in a 45mph zone!

Drivers need to step up their game, and assign more importance to the safe operation of their vehicles, for their own safety as well as ours.

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Old 02-27-23, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I think you’re entirely correct when it comes to assigning fault for the accident.

However, the shoulder width and the waste of all that space does definitively seem to be an issue in terms of designing infrastructure which promotes safety for cyclists, and reducing the likelihood of such accidents

we could do a lot better in building cycling friendly infrastructure in the US, and re striping the lanes on this bridge would appear to be an example of where we can do better, at a very low cost, if we gave more thought to cyclists in our road designs.
I totally agree. In the city I currently live, they have made a good commitment but I think with outdated ideas and in some cases missed opportunities.

Bottom line for me after experiencing bike lanes, sharrows, traffic calming methods, etc is to focus all of my efforts on protected bike lanes. Copenhagen should be a model and engineers should be requesting the tools to implement a protected, connected plan.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:33 AM
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As for highway shoulders discussions here:

My state never cleans roadways. Maybe 18" of any shoulder is clean enough to ride on due to traffic wind blowing debris off that space. But often rumble strips are placed right there, or rows of reflectors on bridges.

No roadie in his right mind would even consider riding a shoulder here. I'll ride them with Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires on my touring bike. Never a racing tire.

I highly doubt those ppl love riding shoulders either.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by work4bike
I deal a lot with these work trailers around here and they are a serious thing to consider when on the roads.
And every 6-wheeled pickup truck is pulling one, which is many where I live. I have to occasionally drive one for work. It's not easy.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
How is it not safe?
Read the title of this thread.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:52 AM
  #71  
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Yeah, I got a trained eye for them now, even in my mirror I can tell when there's a trailer behind me, except for the occasional ones that are far less as wide as the vehicle...gotta look out for them as well.

What's funny is when a vehicle is pulling out, perpendicular to oncoming traffic and that traffic doesn't factor in approaching speed for a longer-than-expected vehicle and then you see a bunch of brake lights lighting up.


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Old 02-27-23, 03:10 PM
  #72  
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I find shoulders on bridges are typically unrideable spaces. On a highway debris gets kicked on into the grass by vehicle tires. On bridges the debris bounces off the wall and collects in the shoulder. If you ride there you will get a flat.

I suspect many if not most cyclist rear end collisions are the result of drivers waiting until the last second to pass. For a following driver anything in front of them is obscured until the lead driver completely changes lanes. Since the lead driver is still closing the gap as they are changing lanes they may only be 20 feet behind a cyclist before they clear the lane and the driver behind can see anything. With a string of multiple vehicles it creates a chain reaction where either the whole line slows down or the gap gets tighter and tighter with each subsequent vehicle. You can end up with a situation where a driver is doing highway speed and suddenly has a bike 15 feet in front of them. It's not limited to bikes, there are plenty of videos online where a driver plows into the back of a broken down truck.

Found a video that kind of illustrates it, occurs multiple times. First truck waits to pass, starts passing closing gap as he is changing lanes. Next group of cars does an accordion slowdown. Finally the bus waiting until the last second to pass blocks view of driver that hit cyclists. IMO failing to the bus driver failing to drive defensively contributed to it. Nice of the city to deliberately edit out the part that illustrates their employee's culpability.

This type of collision is my biggest worry, because the driver behavior that leads to it is so common. There's not much you can do to avoid it other than finding a better route, which I try to do but sometimes there are no alternatives to a road with no shoulder.

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Old 02-27-23, 04:03 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
You can die.

Law is single file unless there is no traffic, then, we can ride two abreast staying as far right as possible in my state. Unbelievablty, we have go walk bridges. 3-4 abreast going into the second lane is risky. Safety is relative term taking into consideration one's acceptance of risk. I would never ride that bridge as shown in that video and certainly would not go into the second lane, it is too risky by my standards and in my state, the law. That is my opinion. I really don't care about your response, that is my opinion and my beef against cycling clubs in general. Two abreast is also Az law.....see below for Az law. I have zero interest in arguing with you. Law is the law. 3-4 abreast with occasional cross overs into the second lane is very dangerous.

I could have worded my question better. I assumed readers would know that I was wondering how going from the legal 2 abreast to the illegal 3 abreast decreases safety/increases risk.

This question will likely not get an honest answer.
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Old 02-27-23, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Read the title of this thread.
Do we know that this group was not riding in compliance with the law? Could it not be argued that riding spread further across the road increases their visibility and their safety.
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Old 02-27-23, 07:37 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Do we know that this group was not riding in compliance with the law? Could it not be argued that riding spread further across the road increases their visibility and their safety.
So how'd THAT theory work out for them?
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