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Another Peloton clobbered by pickup truck, in AZ. 2 dead so far.

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Another Peloton clobbered by pickup truck, in AZ. 2 dead so far.

Old 03-19-23, 06:08 AM
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I tried to find some updated information on this yesterday, but nothing...
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Old 03-19-23, 06:39 PM
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RCMoeur, Thank you for those photos. The bridge surface seems to be very new, free of any potholes.
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Old 03-20-23, 09:35 AM
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Hey all,

I deleted an offending post that was supposed to be meant as a joke on this thread about deaths. Not sure why a joke seemed like the right thing to do, but it was done and not tolerated, so it's gone

Thank you to those that pointed it out and had the class to know when and where jokes should be posted. Not everyone will have the same grace as you, and I appreciate you for mentioning to the person that it's just not right.

Sometimes others we have to help along, since they may not have the structure that others do. Thanks for being a good community member.

Any more crude postings will warrant an infraction.
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Old 08-22-23, 09:42 AM
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The NTSB is also investigating the crash

Published: Aug. 2, 2023 at 9:54 PM CDTGOODYEAR, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) — It’s been five months since a pickup truck driver plowed into a group of cyclists in Goodyear, killing two of them and injuring 17 others. They were all part of West Valley Cycle. They came together Wednesday morning for a memorial ride to honor Karen Malisa. It would have been her 62nd birthday. While the police investigation is complete, Arizona’s Family Investigates found the driver responsible still hasn’t been charged.

Maricopa County Attorney Rachel Mitchell said these cases take time. While Goodyear police submitted their findings to them months ago, prosecutors wanted more information and sent the case back. Mitchell said that work is now complete and they’re reviewing the case. All of it leaves those injured and the families of those killed watching and waiting.

Step by step, day by day. It’s how Clay Wells is trying to move forward after that horrific bike crash back in February. “I just underwent my sixth surgery three weeks ago, which was my final surgery,” Wells said. “My focus is on trying to get as back to normal as possible.”

Wells said he didn’t remember anything about the crash but his fellow cyclists and investigators have filled him in. “I was the first one hit and went under the truck and the truck actually ran over the left side of my body,” Wells said. “I was badly injured. I was bleeding internally and was actually in danger of bleeding out.”

Wells was one of 20 cyclists that Saturday morning. They were all part of the West Valley Cycle group. They were on the Cotton Lane Bridge south of MC 85 in Goodyear, considered the safest stretch of their route when a pickup truck driver hit them from behind. The driver, Pedro Quintana-Lujan, 26, reportedly told investigators his steering wheel locked.

“That’s a new one for me, in 33 years of doing accidents, of a steering wheel actually locking to one side and pulling a car that way,” Dave Wells, an accident reconstruction expert, said. Dave Wells, no relation to Clay Wells, spent decades in law enforcement, with the majority of it investigating crashes. He explained that authorities break accidents into components. They need to look at every angle, and consider every element to determine what happened.

Arizona’s Family Investigates asked Dave Wells if this timeframe seems especially long. “Something like this, I would say no,” Dave Wells said.

As the County Attorney’s Office reviews the case, Quintana-Lujan remains a free man. For friends of those killed and injured, it’s concerning. “We can’t really get any information about why it’s taking long, what’s the delay in the process, when will the decision be forthcoming?” David Herzog asked. He started West Valley Cycle 21 years ago. The group has 2,600 members. “Let’s help put this piece away in the families that lost their loved ones and those that are injured,” Herzog said.
“Is it frustrating? Yes, but it’s also a reality that needs to be addressed,” Clay Wells said. He remains optimistic charges are coming. “I struggle. I don’t have closure yet,” he said.The NTSB is also investigating the crash. Dave Wells said it’s common for them to get involved when a crash on this scale happens. Their focus is different. They’re looking at the road itself and trying to determine what could be done to prevent a crash like this moving forward.
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Old 09-04-23, 03:13 PM
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A recent study on road rage found that surveyed drivers reporting the most incidents in Arizona.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-i...ional-drivers/

Motorist will drive behind a slow moving piece of farm machinery but cannot do so with bicyclists. The attitude is that bicyclists have no right to be on the road in the first place.
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Old 09-04-23, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun

Motorist will drive behind a slow moving piece of farm machinery but cannot do so with bicyclists. The attitude is that bicyclists have no right to be on the road in the first place.
Equally plausible is that there are material difference between bicyclists and farmers driving tractors.

The first is that drivers understand that farmers are working and have to be there.

Also, and maybe more significant, drivers know that farmers can't move over (or already have as far as possible) but bicyclists can, but won't. (this is about driver perception, and not practical reality, so let's not argue about lane position)

Another element is the clash of entitlements. We now live in a RIGHTS focused society, with 2 generations that were coddled as children and aren't used to being denied anything. So drivers cannot tolerate being inconvenienced by cyclists who are insisting on fully exercising their rights to the road.

This sense of entitlement and RIGHTS manifests in every aspect of modern life and accounts for the meltdowns and tantrums we see in aircraft, schools, retail, etc. so we shouldn't be surprised when we see it on the road.

Sharing the road is a two way street, that depends on courtesy and respect rather than insisting on RIGHTS.
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Old 09-04-23, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun
A recent study on road rage found that surveyed drivers reporting the most incidents in Arizona.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-i...ional-drivers/

Motorist will drive behind a slow moving piece of farm machinery but cannot do so with bicyclists. The attitude is that bicyclists have no right to be on the road in the first place.
Stay to the right. Stay single-file. Share the road. Sometimes, the answer is simple.
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Old 09-14-23, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by rickpaulos
Finally some "reason" cited in the press. Been waiting to hear if the driver was OWI, distracted by a smartphone, or what. To his credit, the driver did not leave the scene like some crackhead would.

Goodyear officials shared new details on Monday about the vehicle collision involving a Ford F-250 pickup that plowed into a group of bicyclists, killing two and injuring 17 others Saturday morning.

Police say 26-year-old Pedro Quintana-Lujan traveled south while driving the truck on Cotton Lane Bridge at around 7:57 a.m. when he crashed into the group of cyclists. Court documents state Quintana-Lujan told police that his steering was locked when the vehicle began drifting to the right and into the cyclists.

Documents say he eventually let off the gas and regained control of the vehicle before bringing it to a stop in the middle of the bridge where he remained as first responders arrived. Quintana-Lujan told police at one point that he was traveling between 40-45 mph and later estimated his speed was between 45-50 mph.



I found lots of internet complaints about F-250 steering. "F series wobble" or "Ford Death Wobble"
This site below has 687 owner complaints. After reading through a bunch of them it's clear Ford is blowing off owners citing parts aren't available. One complaint stated this has been going on since 1973. Some state the problem started in a truck with just 2500 miles on the odo. Seems hitting a pothole or expansion joint can trigger the wobble and loss of control.

Every individual truck would respond differently depending on how weak the dampers are, loose or worn out front end bearings, ball joints and other suspension joints, the cargo load distribution, tire condition, etc so trying to pin the problem to an exact speed isn't practical. Many of the complaints cite 70mph but if more parts are worn, I would think it triggers at lower speeds. Hard to blame a vehicle owner for not doing the repair work when the dealer blows you off or there are no parts to fix it. Since this has been going on for years, clearly Ford doesn't care to address it. Typical big car company behavior. Remember the Pinto memo? Cheaper to pay off the family members for deaths than to fix it.

https://www.carcomplaints.com/Ford/F...steering.shtml

I experienced the ford "death wobble" I had $1200 worth of repairs done on steering and suspension parts. 10,000 miles and 7 months later I am experiencing the same problems again. This is a real safety concern because you loose all control of the vehicle at speeds over 50 miles per hour. How long before this problem kills someone? The first time I experienced this problem the vehicle dragged me across 3 lanes of traffic at 70 mph.
Horse**** owned several Fords, no such malady, although entirely possible that the defense has planted a website....Really need to put the perpetrator of these murders in prison for a long time.
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Old 12-01-23, 11:17 AM
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Well this is a load of carp.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/su...torneys-office

County Attorney Rachel Mitchell said Pedro Quintana Lujan will not face felony charges.
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Old 12-01-23, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas
Well this is a load of carp.

https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/su...torneys-office

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Thanks for the update. So this has been referred back from the County DA to the City DA. Not necessarily dead just yet.

I'm not convinced that every "accident" must be prosecuted.

It certainly can be hard to control for a mechanical failure. Looking back through the tread, the pickup looks intact enough that it should have been able to be repaired and tested for a steering malfunction.

However, a lot doesn't add up. Did the person hit the brakes? Drifts from the left lane across the right lane, across the bike lane, and smashes into the concrete barrier, and still smashes into a large group of cyclists before hitting the brakes.

If this was a "mechanical failure", has it ever happened before? Prior resolution? If there was a trailer involved, was it maintained as safe, and safely loaded?
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Old 12-01-23, 01:02 PM
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This might be a correct decision under the law. A prosecutor must have a good faith belief that he can get a conviction to proceed.

Without evidence of a specific prosecutorable crime, ie. DUI he cannot meet that test and act as he did. For better or worse (mostly better) criminal law is black and white and we must accept justice through the civil court which offers much greater latitude.
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Old 12-01-23, 01:34 PM
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The problem is negligence, or negligent homicide. Also, looking back through the thread, speeding, although that may be hard to determine accurately.

So, if this was a fluke accident... then no prosecution.
If the driver knew he had a serious problem with his vehicle and chose to ignore it, then that pushes one towards negligence. Also an improperly loaded trailer.

What would an ordinary competent driver do in the situation? Drift towards a concrete wall, and my first reaction would be steering AND BRAKES. Drift towards over a dozen cyclists, and my reaction would be to mash the brakes like there is no tomorrow.

If the driver was initially passing from the left lane, then that is good, although as a cycling driver, I like to slow down when passing pedestrians and cyclists. If I can't safely pass, then I'll slow or stop until I can.

This whole thing sounds more like a distracted or dozing driver than anything else. And the law requires safe operation of a vehicle one is driving. One can argue about the details, but one must drive safely per the road conditions.
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Old 12-01-23, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
This might be a correct decision under the law. A prosecutor must have a good faith belief that he can get a conviction to proceed.

Without evidence of a specific prosecutorable crime, ie. DUI he cannot meet that test and act as he did. For better or worse (mostly better) criminal law is black and white and we must accept justice through the civil court which offers much greater latitude.
Stop defending indolent prosecutors who refuse to do their job.

As in 99% of these cases, there's not much wrong with the relevant laws -- the only problem is that "civil servants" refuse to work. Specifically, in Arizona, the following laws apply:

Originally Posted by https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01102.htm
13-1102. Negligent homicide; classification

A. A person commits negligent homicide if with criminal negligence the person causes the death of another person, including an unborn child.
And the definition of "criminal negligence" is:

Originally Posted by https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/00105.htm
(d) "Criminal negligence" means, with respect to a result or to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense, that a person fails to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the result will occur or that the circumstance exists. The risk must be of such nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.
Continuing to drive a 3.5 ton vehicle at around 50 mph without steering obviously and unarguably meets that definition. There is only one correct response to losing steering in a vehicle, and that is to immediately stop the vehicle as quickly as practicable -- and there's no suggestion by anyone that this driver met that standard, quite the opposite, in fact, he apparently continued to barrel down the road like a bowling ball in a bumper lane, wiping out whatever he came across.

This is, as usual, professional malpractice by the prosecutor, and as usual, no repercussions will result. And that, along with cops' refusal to work, is most of our road safety problem.
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Old 03-14-24, 09:46 PM
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New update, AZ has debunked the steering fault.
Quote >> Quintana-Lujan is now charged with two counts of causing death by a moving violation and nine counts of causing serious physical injury by a moving violation — all misdemeanors. He faces up to 5 1/2 years if convicted of all the counts.
According to the NTSB report, the Arizona Department of Public Safety also found nothing wrong with the vehicle's steering.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world...965386b31bc290

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Old 03-14-24, 11:40 PM
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Thanks for keeping up with the coverage and passing it along.
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Old 03-15-24, 05:54 AM
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Thumbs up for the update.
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Old 03-15-24, 08:37 AM
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How anyone could not see a whole line of cyclist is beyond any common sense. They need to check his phone records and see if he was on his cell phone.

Since 2 were killed, he needs to be charged with motor vehicle homicide!!!
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Old 03-15-24, 11:48 AM
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Quintana-Lujan is now charged with two counts of causing death by a moving violation and nine counts of causing serious physical injury by a moving violation — all misdemeanors.
What sort of degenerate human being even came up with the idea of a misdemeanor for killing a person?

And again, to my previous point, Arizona law contains the appropriate crime for Quintana-Lujan to be charged with -- and it's a felony, called 'negligent homicide' -- but indolent prosecutors continue to refuse to do their jobs, and this "Live, and Let Die" attitude is largely why our roads are so dangerous for everyone.
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Old 03-15-24, 01:08 PM
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What sort of degenerate human being doesn't believe in forgiveness?

If you ever have a family member that is classified as a felon, then you'll understand why. Once a felon, quite a bit of your future life is severely impacted. Probably one of the reasons for the high recidivism rates of felons. And many felony convictions will still only require 5 years or less in prison.
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Old 03-15-24, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
What sort of degenerate human being doesn't believe in forgiveness?
When did I say that?

Originally Posted by Iride01
If you ever have a family member that is classified as a felon, then you'll understand why. Once a felon, quite a bit of your future life is severely impacted.
Tell me how much of "the future life" of the two deceased persons was "severely impacted".

If you are telling me, with a presumably straight face, that we should be more concerned about potentially impacting the killer's life, then you are precisely an example of the "Live and Let Die" attitude which causes our roads to be so dangerous to everyone.
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Old 03-15-24, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TC1
If you are telling me, with a presumably straight face, that we should be more concerned about potentially impacting the killer's life, then you are precisely an example of the "Live and Let Die" attitude which causes our roads to be so dangerous to everyone.
Yes I am telling you that with a straight face. The dead are dead. Nothing is going to bring them back. However the living will still have to live with the perpetrator of these horrible events. Wouldn't you rather they change their ways and also enjoy a good life. Or do you want to hound them and have them stay with a criminal mindset?

And as I said even a felon might only be given about 5 years in prison for such. Does it matter to you what the classification is? A felony conviction adds so much negative things to a persons life and in some states will keep them from ever getting decent jobs in their preferred field of work. So personally, I'd rather give any person a chance to prove they won't repeat their mistakes. Maybe more than one chance.

I could say your feeling that they must suffer the consequence for all their life is only going to make that person likely to do more bad things later that will only make for more suffering of others.

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Old 03-15-24, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Yes I am telling you that with a straight face. The dead are dead. Nothing is going to bring them back. However the living will still have to live with the perpetrator of these horrible events. Wouldn't you rather they change their ways and also enjoy a good life. Or do you want to hound them and have them stay with a criminal mindset?

And as I said even a felon might only be given about 5 years in prison for such. Does it matter to you what the classification is? A felony conviction adds so much negative things to a persons life and in some states will keep them from ever getting decent jobs in their preferred field of work. So personally, I'd rather give any person a chance to prove they won't repeat their mistakes. Maybe more than one chance.

I could say your feeling that they must suffer the consequence for all their life is only going to make that person likely to do more bad things later that will only make for more suffering of others.
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that you are ok with murdering someone with negligence gets a free pass. You say a felony conviction adds all sorts of trouble and stigma to the murderers life? What about the value they subtracted from their victim? The offending murderer in this case subtracted all twice ovet. The accounting must be made.

The stigma associated with a felony is the cost of being a self absorbed inconsiderate piece of garbage with zero regard for others or the community they live in. If you are ok with a net negative to subtract from civilized society, that's on you.

Knowing several felons personally, the garbage ones become a lower class because they are lower class people. The ones who change their ways become value adding citizens.

The truck driver murdered with negligence towards the task at hand. Negligence was his weapon. How can you be ok with this? Would you be ok with: "Oops! My Bad." and give a free pass if your wife or child was murdered? If so, That says a lot about you and what you think of their value.

If you don't buy the murder with negligence argument, and counter with: "It was an accident! He didn't mean to." I'd like to remind you that he didn't try not to, either. So he's either responsible for his actions, or he's not. If someone can not be responsible for their own actions, they shouldn't be a part of society.

I was always taught to be courteous to others. Taking a life is the opposite of courtesy. In fact, it's about the most rude thing I can think of.
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Old 03-15-24, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by base2
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that you are ok with murdering someone with negligence gets a free pass. You say a felony conviction adds all sorts of trouble and stigma to the murderers life? What about the value they subtracted from their victim? The offending murderer in this case subtracted all twice ovet. The accounting must be made.
I'm not giving them a free pass. I never said that.
Knowing several felons personally, the garbage ones become a lower class because they are lower class people. The ones who change their ways become value adding citizens.
So even you admit some can change their ways. I just feel that we should not make it harder for them to change their ways because a felony conviction will bring discrimination and prejudice. So not having to claim they are a felon might let them get jobs that might keep them from doing bad things again.

The truck driver murdered with negligence towards the task at hand. How can you be ok with this? Would you be ok with: "Oops! My Bad." and give a free pass if your wife or child was murdered? If so, That says a lot about you and what you think of their value.

If you don't buy the murder with negligence argument, and counter with: "It was an accident! He didn't mean to." I'd like to remind you that he didn't try not to, either. So he's either responsible for his actions, or he's not. If someone can not be responsible for their own actions, they shouldn't be a part of society.

I was always taught to be courteous to others. Taking a life is the opposite of courtesy. In fact, it's about the most rude thing I can think of.
Again, I didn't say that I was okay with them killing another. Nor did I say they shouldn't serve time in prison. They'll likely go to prison regardless of whether it's a felony or a misdemeanor. Why do you feel that they need to be termed a felon for everyone to use that to discriminate against them for the rest of their lives. Why do you feel that justice requires vengeance for life?
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Old 03-15-24, 04:18 PM
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IMO arguing about whether the charged crime is s misdemeanor or felony, or about the diligence of the police or prosecutor, veers into the area of politics.

Let's try to focus on facts, and causes to see if there's anything that might be learned.

Also keep in mind that families and friends of the dead and injured often read these threads, and conduct ourselves accordingly.

I, for one, don't want to see this closed, so hope b we can stay below moderator radar.
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Old 03-15-24, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
What sort of degenerate human being doesn't believe in forgiveness?

If you ever have a family member that is classified as a felon, then you'll understand why. Once a felon, quite a bit of your future life is severely impacted. Probably one of the reasons for the high recidivism rates of felons. And many felony convictions will still only require 5 years or less in prison.
After he spends 50 years in jail for killing 2 other human beings, we can talk about forgiveness. His stupid action turned him into a felon.
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