FBinNY 

Guys, please take this bar fight outside before the furniture gets broken.

CliffordK

Somehow the DOT really dropped the ball on E-Bikes and E-Scooters.

They should have had a basic requirement of headlights/taillights on 100% of the time, just like motorcycles.

The bike path is probably the best place for E-Bikes moving at less than 20 MPH. But, 30+ MPH, and they should only be on automobile roads.

Direction of travel should be enforced.

Troul 

X2. All E-transportation should come equipped with DRL's & an electric horn. It'd help, but not eliminate risks when they are "sharing" the paths 7 roads, even though they ideally shouldn't be used on a ped pathway.

Daniel4

That makes the most sense but I have a feeling the authorities left it to avoid pushback from drivers for having another slow moving vehicle in front of them.

mschwett 

does DOT have any jurisdiction? i thought that only the CPSC did. bikes and scooters don’t use interstates and so on…

livedarklions

I also think there should be some guidance as to the maximum size/weight of the electric vehicles. A 250 pound ebike/rider going 20 mph is a lot less of a hazard than a 500+ pound cargo ebike going the same speed. And yes, there are such vehicles.

redshift1

It's only going to be a matter of time and will get worse. Over here, e-scooters, e-bikes and e-monowheel things are proliferating. They are getting cheaper and becoming the next must have item. Also petrol/gas costs will drive more sales. We are supposed to have a 25 km/h limit on these devices sold here but it is clear they can be easily modified ( perhaps by simply buying a "chip " ? ) to go much faster. We have one fellow around here who dresses in full leathers including motorcycle helmet and rides a monowheel at speeds I'm estimating around double the legal limit. There is no law enforcement of these things on the cycle paths ( so far ). It will take a fatality before anything is done, as per usual practice.

I am at least glad I invested in a Garmin radar. Now these e-things no longer sneak up behind me unannounced.

mschwett 

i think the primary issue is whether they’re allowed in bike lanes - or rather, up to what power and speed threshold they’re allowed.

the high speed onewheel riders seem particularly hazardous because they don’t go straight, it’s a constant high speed slalom. most of the serious ones around here also fully clad in protective motorcycle gear.

FBinNY 

Here's my 3 cents (inflation) on e-bikes.

I think that everybody in the federal DOT, along with those of most states went bonkers when formulating the rules.

Keep in mind that I'm one of those fools who believe that words have meanings.

So for over a century BICYCLES were human powered vehicles. If you added a motor they became MOTORCYCLES. Gas, steam, or electricity, a motor is still a MOTOR, and putting one on a bicycle makes it a MOTORcycle.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with a motor ASSIST on a bicycle provided it serves mainly to help weaker riders ride like a stronger ones. Kind of equity in human power. So, an e-bike is still a bike if the motor only assists a pedaling rider, but cannot drive the bike otherwise. Also it must phase out at something between 15-18mph since riders above that speed do not need help.

If we stick to that concept, it can be good for everybody, helping the less fit and those in hilly areas enjoy the benefits of the sport. By the same token, e-bikes would have the same road or trail presence as regular bikes with stronger riders.

HOWEVER regulators veered into the swamp trying to please everybody. They allowed hand throttles (not requiring that the rider pedal), and raised power limits to make them more saleable as urban transport. Doing so they created a monster which more properly was a motorcycle, yet not regulated as such.

The solution would be to move throttle bikes back to the motorcycle category where they belong, and write rules accordingly. it might make sense to create a class of light or urban e-motorcycles with max speeds matched to urban sped limits, and write rules for things like registration, helmets, license, etc. that make sense for that application.


The saddest part of this nonsense is that nobody seems to have learned anything from the Moped era of a few decades back. Regulators magically believe that using batteries instead of gasoline will make this iteration different. (It won't)

The saddest part, is that by blurring the lines, they've set us up for a backlash and will end up penalizing pedal assist riders for the problems caused by throttle e-bikes.

mschwett 

i vaguely recall the moped days. my older brother got one of those honda ones. but i don't recall the factors that led them to fall out of favor. was it safety? reliability? pollution? i recall them being single stroke?

i have mixed feelings about throttles, power limits, etc. i have a class 3 e-bike which at most adds double the human input power, with a maximum of around 240 watts of effective output. so, to get that, you have to pedal at 120 watts. that's the difference between going 16mph and 24mph, very roughly. get your own power up to 240w (beyond the sustained output of most recreational or utility riders) and the gain drops to an additional 6mph, 21 vs 27. is there additional risk there? there is. could it create conflicts and hazards in a bike lane? maybe, but arguably not much different than the fact that there are riders already capable of and doing 20+mph in the bike lane. my preference would be for total power limits, weight limits, and speed limits, with some actual enforcement. throttles are extremely useful for people with kids or cargo on their relatively heavy bikes, especially in places that aren't flat. if we're going to meaningfully reduce the number of cars on the road, we have to get to people who aren't already out there riding for fun...

JoeyBike

My favorite Rail-Trail (No Motorized Vehicles) is now loaded with E-Bikes (they changed the rules for them) and I can not believe how many people plopped down thousands of dollars for a bike. The same ones who liked to make fun of me when I plopped down thousands of dollars for a bike. I'm not really sure how I feel about the whole E-Bike thing yet. A friend begged me to ride a Specialized pedal assist only E-Bike and told me he'd make fun of me if I didn't hit 30mph on it. I hit 40. It was petty cool but can't see myself owning one so long as I can squeak along on a traditional bike, even a tadpole trike. I'm still a pretty strong rider so what's the point?

If it gets motorists on a bicycle maybe they will see other cyclists in a better light. This is my hope. Everyone I see on the Rail-Trail with an E-bike is polite. More polite than some roadies on that path. It's a tough call. If I were a lawmaker I'm not sure I'm ready to restrict the danged things. I'd be more nervous living in an apartment complex with a bunch of E-Bikes on battery chargers in the building. Hover boards, electric skateboards, etc all seem enamored with catching on fire middle of the night when everyone is asleep.

FBinNY 

The key issue was safety. Both for the users and everyone else. That, and the impossibility of enforcing traffic laws.

Since no license was required, there wasn't any leverage. Ultimately they became the vehicle option for those who lost driver's licenses for DWI.

And as things happen in the USA, once they started getting bad press, everybody piled on; too noisy, smelly, polluting, stored indoors causing fire hazard, and of course the guy who killed somebody's grandma.


Again, I believe in e-bikes as long as they're pedal assist vs. throttle. Visit NYC, where they're very common, but you'll rarely see anybody pedaling. Because they didn't buy a bicycle, they bought an unregulated motorcycle.

BTW - there's plenty of room regarding the phase out speed for assist. My point is that there should only be 2 classes: e-bicycles and e-motorcycles, with rules that match.

Thought, we're already seeing some issues. Since there's no meaningful regulation, there's also barely any quality control. Nothing like UL standards on the sizeable batteries. Since it's a practical necessity to bring bikes indoors in NYC, we're starting to see some serious apartment building fires.

merlinextraligh

appropo of nothing,it’s way harder to boat drunk than drive. Boats don’t have brakes; boats don’t steer well when you kill the throttle; things come at you from all directions, not just defined lanes, your at the mercy of tides,waves and currents.

and in a car you’re unlikely to fall overboard, capsize or drown.

I’ll drive after a glass of wine at dinner. I will not have a single beer operating a boat.

jon c. 

That's certainly true, but at that point they really are extremely useful because they're a motor vehicle, not really a bicycle in the classic sense. Not that there's anything wrong with such a conveyance, it's just a question of nomenclature.

Troul 

no parent while pulling a kid when using an "E-BSO" should exceed 12MPH. That should be plenty for the family to enjoy an outing in the park.

mschwett 

lol, i didn't realize someone had died and left you in charge! i ride with my littlest one on the back of an "E-BSO" quite safely up to around 20mph, thanks very much. we go lots of places, some far enough away to make the difference between 12mph and 20mph very significant. when cars are generally going 20-25, it's also safer to go 20 than 12, pretty much keeping up with traffic.

this is the "bikes are toys" mentality that seems so common here. we don't just "enjoy an outing in the park." we go to school, errands, doctors appointments, bike to and from trains to more faraway places, etc.

Troul 

it's not you doing 100mph with your kid out back, it's when another person collides into you & the speeds driving up the injuries.


next time pay attention to faux news, they do the announcements for who's in charge.

Troul 

Why can't you manually do the pedaling to travel at those speeds with your children being pulled behind you?

mschwett 

because it takes a sustained power output of 750 watts to go even 12mph up a 10% grade with a total load of 275lb? there are these things called hills. and headwinds. and i don't necessarily feel like getting a massive workout every time i take the kids somewhere? and it's absolutely perfectly legal for us to do so, whether you'd rather we be in an SUV or not.

Troul 

next time, run the plan by us here at BF to make sure you are making the best decision!

stevel610 

God, grant me the Serenity to accept the people I cannot change.
The courage to change the one I can.
And the wisdom to know that one is me....

All you can do is light yourself up like a Christmas tree, and keep your head on a swivel.

Leisesturm

When did this turn into an e-assist hate thread? Sigh. And the repeated cries for "enforcement". Guys, I really hate to be the one to break it to y'all's ... there isn't anyone coming to save us from ourselves! They can barely patrol the streets. Now you want them to patrol the MUP's too? And the production (Specialized) e-bike going 40mph. No one flagged that? Well I will. Specialized does not sell e-bikes capable of that speed, so they should not be called out by name. Getting incensed about the existence of e-bikes that have throttles is just more virtue signaling, and is inappropriate.

Constantly being irate that e-assist exists in any form at all, and that bicycles should forever remain unpowered, is just pure unadulterated Karen. I wish you could all step back a bit from the edge and look at your posts like someone without an axe to grind will. I think you would be (rightfully) embarrassed at how Karen you sound. One day you will need an e-bike, and you will buy one, and of course (with no irony whatsoever) that will be ok because you will only use the lowest amount of assist possible. And only when absolutely necessary.

mschwett 

amen. i was going to point out the 40mph e-bike but figured everyone who mattered knew it was BS.

old karens yelling at the clouds…

JoeyBike

It was a prototype SPECIALIZED E-Bike without speed restrictions installed. I do not remember the model but it was their very first E-Bike release. Seems like 5 years ago but time flies so I'm not sure the date, could be longer. This is not some rumor I HEARD. I rode the bike and hit 40 mph (not kph) on it in a 35 mph zone and even passed an NOPD marked vehicle. The bike shop was Bayou Bicycles on Toulouse Street in New Orleans USA. 504-488-1946 closed Sundays. Charlie Doerr is the owner, Kyle his brother is/was the head mechanic. Dial them up and ask if they ever had such a bike. It was NOT for sale, it was on loan from Specialized. Many, many people test drove it and most broke 30 mph on it. Call them up, talk to somebody whose been there a while and report back with your findings.

Pretty sure it was ^^this bike without speed restriction.