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New York, New York

Old 08-13-23, 10:11 AM
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Just an update. Seems like NYC's congestion pricing plan has hit a road block.... pardon the pun

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/laws-...l&uh_test=0_00

A bedrock federal law designed to protect the environment and empower local communities is being weaponized to block progress on climate change, infrastructure and housing.

The battle over New York Cityís landmark congestion price plan is the latest example.

After more than 50 years of efforts to implement a toll program that would slash greenhouse emissions from cars and reduce congestion in lower Manhattan, the plan cleared a milestone in May, when the federal government signed off on the release of an environmental assessment.

Then, last month, New Jersey sued to block the plan, citing the National Environmental Policy Act of 1970 (NEPA). The law requires federal agencies to give a detailed assessment of the environmental impact before approving projects that could significantly alter the environmental landscape.
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Old 08-15-23, 01:14 PM
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The "congestion" fee is really nothing more than an attempt to get fees to be more related to "marginal costs," as economists say, rather than "average costs," upon which fees and levies are usually based. This has been a policy advocated by economists for years. I like the idea for that reason; in addition, I like anything as an alternative to the gas tax, which should have been repealed years ago, especially at the federal level.
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Old 08-15-23, 01:16 PM
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Send him off to a federal PUNITENTIARY!
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Old 08-18-23, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
What "concept" is widely used all over Europe? Other than London, what other city is using a Congestion Pricing Plan concept for directly charging motorists tolls for driving privately owned vehicles into the Central Business District?
I think Granada, Spain. I was there in Ď98, before such concept. On some corners it was difficult to have a conversation with the person next to you while waiting for the traffic light. It was that loud, especially with all the students on scooters.
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Old 08-18-23, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by john m flores
I support congestion pricing but I will say that from the New Jersey perspective, most of the daily commuter trains (NJ Transit) go through a single pair of tunnels under the Hudson River that are over 100 years old and were badly damaged from Superstorm Sandy. Those tunnels are also used by Amtrak, and there's an equally old and unreliable bridge Portal Bridge) that is also used. When there are issues with either the tunnels or bridge, commuting grinds to a halt, easily turning a 1+ hour commute into 2+ hours.

There are plans to replace both tunnels and the bridge but they haven't even broken ground yet so the fix is likely a dozen years off.

What congestion pricing might do is push a system at its limits over the brink.

New York City's MTA has its own issues as well, but New Jersey's are arguably worse.
There was a plan a long time ago, but Christie effectively killed it.

I work in the rail biz. The Hudson Tubes are going to fail sooner rather than later. Letís hope they donít do so catastrophically. Time to stop playing politics with something that everyone knows is critical.
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Old 11-03-23, 05:35 PM
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Still working on it...


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Old 11-03-23, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
There was a plan a long time ago, but Christie effectively killed it.

I work in the rail biz. The Hudson Tubes are going to fail sooner rather than later. Letís hope they donít do so catastrophically. Time to stop playing politics with something that everyone knows is critical.
It was in the news today that construction has started. Going to be a long time, letís hope they donít flood or collapse before they are finished.
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Old 11-03-23, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
I think Granada, Spain. I was there in Ď98, before such concept. On some corners it was difficult to have a conversation with the person next to you while waiting for the traffic light. It was that loud, especially with all the students on scooters.
Itís a common Google search. I was in Florence, Italy in Ď06, it was in use then,
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Old 11-03-23, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
I think Granada, Spain. I was there in Ď98, before such concept. On some corners it was difficult to have a conversation with the person next to you while waiting for the traffic light. It was that loud, especially with all the students on scooters.
Itís a common Google search. I was in Florence, Italy in Ď06, it was in use then,
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Old 11-03-23, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff
The "congestion" fee is really nothing more than an attempt to get fees to be more related to "marginal costs," as economists say, rather than "average costs," upon which fees and levies are usually based. This has been a policy advocated by economists for years. I like the idea for that reason; in addition, I like anything as an alternative to the gas tax, which should have been repealed years ago, especially at the federal level.
The basic concept has always been to get private automobiles out of Manhattan. Lots of good reasons for this, pollution was one reason way back, that seems to be not mentioned as much. General congestion as well, time and money lost for commercial traffic, income to support mass transit, making it safer for pedestrians and cyclists, among others. Seems like worthy goals, though the timing needs tweaking, they are talking about it in effect till 10PM, which is far too late, it needs to be off around 7PM or so, which is near the end of rush hours, else they kill the crowds that could drive in for dinner or theater.
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Old 11-05-23, 11:12 AM
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another regressive idea that burdens the average joe and does nothing for NY bicyclists' fantasy of car free streets ....................... can't wait for the gaseous reaction
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Old 11-05-23, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
until the weather can be controlled to not have snow, cold & heavy winds, the whole "plan" is just another legal form of taxation.
Indeed, taxation is legal. Do you know of a place where that isn't true?

And just in case you didn't get the memo, taxation is widely used by governments to modulate demand. Take for example, large excise taxes on gasoline in Europe and other places outside our little bubble.

As to your prefatory comment about weather, so what? Do you think people are MORE likely to drive into Manhattan in a snow storm? My guess is you don't know much about NYC.
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Old 11-06-23, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by jack pot
another regressive idea that burdens the average joe and does nothing for NY bicyclists' fantasy of car free streets ....................... can't wait for the gaseous reaction
I suspect you have an innnacurate picture of how the ďAverage JoeĒ gets into and out of Manhattan. Most use subways as thatís the cheapest method. Driving into and parking costs far more, but offers the advantage of accessing some of the harder to reach corners of the borough not easily reached by subway, the entire west side from the teens north come to mind. Thus having congestion pricing add money to the mass transit system actually is helping Mr Average Joe. Maybe the 2nd Av. Subway will get finished earlier than currently planned. That means Joe doesnít have to transfer to a slow bus. The goal as well is not car free, just car less. That will certainly help cyclists.
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Old 11-07-23, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve B.
Most use subways as thatís the cheapest method.
Don't forget PATH from NJ. Anyone who has ridden to the WTC station during the morning rush knows what crowded means. In total, the system is averaging close to 180,000 people/day.
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Old 11-07-23, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Don't forget PATH from NJ. Anyone who has ridden to the WTC station during the morning rush knows what crowded means. In total, the system is averaging close to 180,000 people/day.
It's obvious that with a few hundred thousand commuters from NJ into Manhattan each day that the mass transit infrastructure for these folks is grossly inadequate. There's NJ Transit to Penn Station, 2 different PATH lines that are hugely inadequate, ferries and cars. NYC is about to make it expensive to drive and they should, but the case could be made that NJ's governments have not done enough to ease the pain of it's residents needing to get into NYC. Chis Christie vetoed initial attempts to get the Hudson NJ Transit (and AMTRAK tunnels) re-built, with him gone it's only now getting started. And lets not forget how he decided one day to **** all those driving in in his pissy fit against the mayor of Fort Lee when Christie essentially closed access to the GW bridge. He's singularly unfit to be a President.
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Old 11-08-23, 11:57 PM
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Whatever happens with "congestion" pricing, if there is a benefit it will go to e-bikes (and other e-things) who will run you down on your pedal bike.

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Old 11-09-23, 01:04 PM
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Usage-based fees are not usually considered "regressive."
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Old 11-13-23, 01:18 AM
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Here in Tokyo we have more people commuting by bike every day than the entire United States combined. Tokyo doesn’t have “congestion pricing,” or any other strategy to keep cars out of the busier districts. What it does have are traffic laws which make motor vehicles automatically responsible for any accident with a bicycle or pedestrian, even of the cyclist or pedestrian is at fault. Tokyo also has clean, efficient, and frequent public transportation (most of which is actually privately owned). This keeps Tokyo’s roads reasonably safe for cycling, despite the near 100% lack of dedicated bicycle lanes, and public transportation is so convenient and well-operated that people are more likely to use it.

The Metro area in Tokyo has nearly twice as many people as Metro New York, and lots of vehicle traffic, but you very seldom hear horns, whereas in NYC, blowing one’s horn seems to be required any time a vehicle accelerates, decelerates, or changes lanes.

Tokyo refuses to restrict cars because private transportation is essential to many people, it brings workers, business people, and customers in and out of the city, and hindering these people causes more harm than good. Like NYC, driving in Tokyo is not very pleasant, which means those who drive do so only because they have to. And the people of Japan, Tokyo in particular, don’t trust the government to properly manage any congestion fees they might collect. It was rampant mismanagement of Japan’s public transportation which caused most of it to be taken out of the hands of government and privatized. Since then, it has become arguably the most efficient system in the world.
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