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Intentional fatal hit and run by car thief, filmed by his passenger

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Intentional fatal hit and run by car thief, filmed by his passenger

Old 09-21-23, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Yes. It's clearly not an A&S issue since the cyclist wasn't wearing a "matching leotard" or a "pointy helmet".
Being murdered by a "hit man" while walking down the street, driving a car, in a bed, or riding a bike, has nothing to do with bicycle safety or advocacy no matter what the victim is doing or wearing.

This belongs in Foo.
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Old 09-21-23, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
If you have any non-cyclist friends who commute to work by car in a metropolitan area daily, ask them. You will be surprised. If they aren't straight up hating cyclists they are laughing out loud at the pointy helmets and matching leotards emblazoned with the logos of Italian dish soap companies. Those costumes tend to dehumanize cyclists mostly to non-cyclists who encounter said costumed cyclists on the roadways. Ask around.
Being murdered by a "hit man" while walking down the street, driving a car, in a bed, or riding a bike, has nothing to do with bicycle safety or advocacy no matter what the victim is doing or wearing.[/QUOTE]


You brought up "dehumanizing cyclists" due to what they cloths they wear

This is an example that what they wear isn't an issue.

If your post was appropriate, this post is appropriate.
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Old 09-21-23, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The reason is that these sorts of threads can lead to “heated” discussions.

The moderators have A&S (this subforum) and P&R as places for heated discussions. This lets them be contained and easily avoided by people who wish to do so.

(I think this is a reasonable policy.)
I agree as far as policy is concerned. It somewhat surprises me that this one would generate heated discussion. It's a terrible crime, but it's not the sort of thing one can protect one's self against. I think most everyone would agree that the perps should be prosecuted to the greatest extent the law allows. There really shouldn't be anything controversial in such an incident.
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Old 09-21-23, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
I agree as far as policy is concerned. It somewhat surprises me that this one would generate heated discussion. It's a terrible crime, but it's not the sort of thing one can protect one's self against. I think most everyone would agree that the perps should be prosecuted to the greatest extent the law allows. There really shouldn't be anything controversial in such an incident.
The moderators have (likely) seen many examples of how these sorts of threads can play out.

There also might be some idea of not having discussions about things people might find disturbing (which would be reasonable in this case!) in places where people aren't expecting it.

This event isn't really a "general cycling" topic.

They aren't saying people can't discuss them. Just not in a particular forum.

Originally Posted by jon c.
There really shouldn't be anything controversial in such an incident.
Just up-thread, we have a poster who is rejecting this as a topic in this forum. A poster who, in another thread here, talks about "wearing leotards" as "dehumanizing cyclists".

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-23 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 09-21-23, 12:15 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
You brought up "dehumanizing cyclists" due to what they cloths they wear

This is an example that what they wear isn't an issue.

If your post was appropriate, this post is appropriate.
I was not including intentional assault on cyclists in any post i may have written. To go out hunting people down with the intent to run them over is an entirely different scenario.

What is the safety message here? I would certainly advocate for NOT running people over on purpose, but that is not the type of Advocacy intended here.
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Old 09-21-23, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I was not including intentional assault on cyclists in any post i may have written. To go out hunting people down with the intent to run them over is an entirely different scenario.
???

So, you only care about "dehumanizing cyclists" if it's not so bad.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
What is the safety message here? I would certainly advocate for NOT running people over on purpose, but that is not the type of Advocacy intended here.
Clearly, that cyclist was not safe.

There's no "rule" that prevents discussing safety issues you don't have control over. That's just some nonsense you are making up.

Clearly, the moderators don't have an issue with it. So, who the heck are you to try to overrule them?

You are just drawing an arbitrary line between stuff you approve of and stuff you don't.

You are advocating censorship, not discussion.
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Old 09-21-23, 03:50 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Clearly, that cyclist was not safe.
ZERO bicyclists are "safe". Balancing on two wheels comes with the territory.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
There's no "rule" that prevents discussing safety issues you don't have control over. That's just some nonsense you are making up.
You have yet to tell us exactly what you deem a safety issue with the OP. Everybody who steps out their front door is susceptible to being murdered.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
Clearly, the moderators don't have an issue with it. So, who the heck are you to try to overrule them?
I have not contacted any moderators about this or any other post on BF over 15+ years I've been here. I don't care what they do.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
You are just drawing an arbitrary line between stuff you approve of and stuff you don't.
Oh, I enjoy the "Bicycle Crash of the Day" posts as much as the next guy. I still don't see the connection to A&S. I don't see a safety message that we should learn from here. You should spell that out to us so we can end this discussion. I'm happy to learn and willing to let this go. I'll even admit that you are the winner of the Internet today.

Spell...it...out.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
You are advocating censorship, not discussion.
Straw man nonsense. And i've been "censored" here aplenty. I'm just not a crybaby about it because this is not a public square.

Last edited by JoeyBike; 09-21-23 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 09-21-23, 03:53 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I have not contacted any moderators about this or any other post on BF over 15+ years I've been here. I don't care what they do.
??? I'm not suggesting you contact the moderators.

I'm saying the moderators' actions indicate they disagree with you thinking this is an inappropriate topic for this subforum.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
I still don't see the connection to A&S.
So what? That you don't manage to see a connection isn't relevant (or a requirement) at all.

It really doesn't belong in the general subforum. It doesn't clearly belong in the P&R thread.

A&S readers are somewhat used to dealing with disturbing/controversial issues. And people who don't want to deal with disturbing/controversial issues learn quickly to avoid A&S.

There doesn't seem to be any other more-appropriate subforum beyond A&S.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
You have yet to tell us exactly what you deem a safety issue with the OP.
It serves as a counter to your nonsense about "matching leotards" dehumanizing cyclists.

If you can talk about things that supposedly promote "dehumanizing cyclists", it's completely appropriate to show examples where that didn't work.

I have said this multiple times.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Everybody who steps out their front door is susceptible to being murdered.
This is dumb. It seems fairly clear that this particular incident was closely related to cycling.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Straw man nonsense. And i've been "censored" here aplenty. I'm just not a crybaby about it because this is not a public square.
Nope. You want this topic to be censored (since A&S is the only practical place for it). Even after the moderators have explicitly approved it being an appropriate topic for A&S.

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-23 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 09-21-23, 09:33 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
So what? That you don't manage to see a connection isn't relevant (or a requirement) at all.
Maybe you will enlighten me as to how the story relates to BICYCLE safety. The mods didn't put it here as a rebuttable to my statement(s) regarding cycling kits.

How can we (cyclists) protect ourselves from murderers? What action can / should we take to avoid being run over on our bikes on purpose (other than becoming non-cyclists)?

If you can't give a definitive answer as to why this is here then you and I have something in common.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
It really doesn't belong in the general subforum. It doesn't clearly belong in the P&R thread.
If I were a moderator it would be in Foo. This is my OPINION. Where the mods dump it is their business.

Last edited by JoeyBike; 09-21-23 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 09-21-23, 10:16 PM
  #35  
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I guess the safety aspect would be always try to be aware of what's going on around you. Would some sort of mirror have given him a few seconds warning?
Could this be a thread advocating bicycle rear radar sensors like the Garmin Varia?

To get back on track.....these are the 2 that did this disgusting act.....
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Old 09-22-23, 04:05 AM
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Pics of them in this link


https://news.yahoo.com/las-vegas-tee...l&uh_test=0_00
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Old 09-22-23, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
I agree as far as policy is concerned. It somewhat surprises me that this one would generate heated discussion. It's a terrible crime, but it's not the sort of thing one can protect one's self against. I think most everyone would agree that the perps should be prosecuted to the greatest extent the law allows. There really shouldn't be anything controversial in such an incident.
I was thinking whether or not my Garmin Varia would have helped in this situation. I think it might have if they were lurking behind the cyclist for a few seconds before the hit. Or if they had come straight in at high speed.
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Old 09-22-23, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Desert Ryder
I guess the safety aspect would be always try to be aware of what's going on around you. Would some sort of mirror have given him a few seconds warning?
Could this be a thread advocating bicycle rear radar sensors like the Garmin Varia?

To get back on track.....these are the 2 that did this disgusting act.....
Commit and adult crime, get treated like an adult.
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Old 09-22-23, 08:25 AM
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It keeps getting worse:

They stole four cars that day and hit another cyclist (a 72-year-old man) earlier that day. He fortunately survived.
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Old 09-22-23, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by JW Fas
It keeps getting worse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx52...%80%94LasVegas

They stole four cars that day and hit another cyclist (a 72-year-old man) earlier that day. He fortunately survived.
What the hell is wrong with people. I know as a nation, we are getting stupider but this is ridiculous.
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Old 09-22-23, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Maybe you will enlighten me as to how the story relates to BICYCLE safety.
It clearly relates to your other A&S post about dehumanizing cyclists since it is an example of a cyclist being dehumanized.

Clearly, the bicyclist wasn't safe. Thus, it relates to BICYCLIST safety in a ridiculously OBVIOUS WAY. (That he wasn't able to do anything about it doesn't change that.)

Note, too, that no one else is agreeing with you that this is not appropriate for A&S.

Since sort of event is something that might discourage people from cycling, it relates to advocacy too!

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
The mods didn't put it here as a rebuttable to my statement(s) regarding cycling kits.
So what? Like really. So what?

The facts are:
  1. The moderators make the rules.
  2. The moderators moved the post into A&S.
  3. Therefore, the topic is appropriate to A&S,
Originally Posted by JoeyBike
How can we (cyclists) protect ourselves from murderers? What action can / should we take to avoid being run over on our bikes on purpose (other than becoming non-cyclists)?

You are just making crap up here.

That there is no option to avoid an incident does not preclude discussion about that incident.

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
... (other than becoming non-cyclists)?
It's possible (even if it's not likely) he wouldn't have gotten run over if he was on the sidewalk. Doing so might have reduced his risk. (NO: I'm not suggesting that he should have done that.)

And, of course, many, many people reduce the risk of riding on roads by either not riding or choosing to ride elsewhere (not on roads).

So, while you imagine "nothing can be done", you mentioned one thing and missed other actions that people do routinely!

Originally Posted by JoeyBike
If I were a moderator it would be in Foo. This is my OPINION. Where the mods dump it is their business.
Clearly, foo is more for "warm and fuzzy" (and not potentially controversial or disturbing) posts. So, foo isn't right either. (You clearly have no idea what gets kicked out of foo.)

Last edited by njkayaker; 09-22-23 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 09-22-23, 01:53 PM
  #42  
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Gee looking at the photos I'm so SURPRISED!

I think this does have bearing on "advocacy and safety" because effective timely prosecution and sentnecing will prevent such behavior from becoming more widespread.
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Old 09-22-23, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by vespasianus
What the hell is wrong with people. I know as a nation, we are getting stupider but this is ridiculous.
The Ferguson effect comes home to roost.
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Old 09-22-23, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vespasianus
What the hell is wrong with people. I know as a nation, we are getting stupider but this is ridiculous.

Sociopathic behavior is nothing new. The annals of history are full of unspeakable acts.

Last edited by jon c.; 09-22-23 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 09-22-23, 03:13 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
Being murdered by a "hit man" while walking down the street, driving a car, in a bed, or riding a bike, has nothing to do with bicycle safety or advocacy no matter what the victim is doing or wearing.

This belongs in Foo.
If you don't like the topic, just shut up and keep out.
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Old 09-22-23, 04:02 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
If you don't like the topic, just shut up and keep out.
The topic doesn't offend me. It illustrates perfectly a bicycle safety issue I've been preaching here a long time. Just prodding and waiting for someone ELSE to figure it out.

Hint:



Merriam-Webster

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Old 09-22-23, 04:33 PM
  #47  
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To the A & S strict constructionists > if the dead & maimed would wear "Take a Look" mirrors they might have had a prayer of a chance
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Old 09-22-23, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Desert Ryder
Would some sort of mirror have given him a few seconds warning?
Could this be a thread advocating bicycle rear radar sensors like the Garmin Varia?
Probably not (outside of a very slim chance).

Mirrors and the Varia work more to keep you from moving left when there's traffic there. If you are keeping your line and somewhat to the right, you are generally relying on drivers not to move to their right to mow you over.

It looks like the victim would have had to hop a curb (which has its own tangible risks).

If you spend too much time looking at your mirror, you spend less time looking forward (where there is more need to avoid stuff). That's one advantage of the Varia: you don't to look anywhere for it to work.

Mirrors/etc are useful but too many people think they "do magic" and work better than they can.
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Old 09-22-23, 07:39 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff
Gee looking at the photos I'm so SURPRISED!
Reported as a racist dog whistle.

There's no reason we should even be publicizing their pictures - it only leads to nonsense like this. Here's the only face we should be remembering here:
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Old 09-22-23, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike
The topic doesn't offend me. It illustrates perfectly a bicycle safety issue I've been preaching here a long time. Just prodding and waiting for someone ELSE to figure it out.

Hint:



Merriam-Webster

Since you keep insisting it doesn’t belong here, that someone else appears to be YOU!
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