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Bad behavior and witty insight...

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Bad behavior and witty insight...

Old 10-02-23, 08:39 AM
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Bad behavior and witty insight...

I enjoy riding early in the morning to avoid rush hour traffic. Double edged sword but at least there are less cars to keep an eye on.

I was on the road. I had the green light. I am sure the truck intended to let me pass but you can't know that when they blow past the first white line (where they should stop) and come to a quick stop right at the curb. I slowed... they let me pass... not the worst thing that has happened to me.

BUT... heading back, when rush hour was picking up. I came to a stop at the light, where all corners had cars looking to go straight, turn, etc... when a MTB flew right through the red light without even looking.

My first triathlon this past year had an incident a few years prior where someone my age (50's) died during the swim. I noticed a "be respectful of cyclist" signs on my route recently where a cyclist was struck and killed a couple of years ago... also about my age.

Risk is relative. Be safe.

Not to toot my horn but I've lost about 60 pounds over the past year. This was after 2 heart caths (no intervention but getting close), hypertension out of control and no longer being pre-diabetic... flat out diabetic. Currently I am down to one medication for blood pressure. I want to lose more weight, for health reasons, but also it will be a lot cheaper than upgrading my bike

Anywho... I do a lot of thinking during my rides. I fully embrace the "you're just figuring this out now" and "d'uh" replies

Risk can be mitigated. Do you what you love.

I also almost hit a deer and a possum. Glad I have a super bright headlight... Quite the fun-filled morning!
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Old 10-02-23, 04:20 PM
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Remember the Smokey the Bear ads, "ONLY YOU can prevent forest fires".

This forum tends to be too much about (please don't argue the point, I said "tends") blaming outrageous motorist conduct, and not enough about informing cyclists that they are in charge of their own destiny and are their own chief safety officer. Ride smart, ride safe.

Last edited by FBinNY; 10-02-23 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 10-02-23, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Remember the Smokey the Bear ads, "ONLY YOU can prevent forest fires".

This forum tends to be too much about (please don't argue the point, I said "tends") blaming outrageous motorist conduct, and not enough about informing cyclists that they are in charge of their own destiny and are their own chief safety officer. Ride smart, rode safe.
Are informed, thoughtful insights like this even allowed under forum rules?
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Old 10-02-23, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
are informed, thoughtful insights like this even allowed under forum rules?
blasphemy!
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Old 10-02-23, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by a1a
I enjoy riding early in the morning to avoid rush hour traffic. Double edged sword but at least there are less cars to keep an eye on.

I was on the road. I had the green light. I am sure the truck intended to let me pass but you can't know that when they blow past the first white line (where they should stop) and come to a quick stop right at the curb. I slowed... they let me pass... not the worst thing that has happened to me.

BUT... heading back, when rush hour was picking up. I came to a stop at the light, where all corners had cars looking to go straight, turn, etc... when a MTB flew right through the red light without even looking.

My first triathlon this past year had an incident a few years prior where someone my age (50's) died during the swim. I noticed a "be respectful of cyclist" signs on my route recently where a cyclist was struck and killed a couple of years ago... also about my age.

Risk is relative. Be safe.

Not to toot my horn but I've lost about 60 pounds over the past year. This was after 2 heart caths (no intervention but getting close), hypertension out of control and no longer being pre-diabetic... flat out diabetic. Currently I am down to one medication for blood pressure. I want to lose more weight, for health reasons, but also it will be a lot cheaper than upgrading my bike

Anywho... I do a lot of thinking during my rides. I fully embrace the "you're just figuring this out now" and "d'uh" replies

Risk can be mitigated. Do you what you love.

I also almost hit a deer and a possum. Glad I have a super bright headlight... Quite the fun-filled morning!

I approach all of my activities with an eye toward mitigating risk down to a level that's acceptable to me. The MTB rider very likely looked, saw that they could make it and went for it.
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Old 10-04-23, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
I approach all of my activities with an eye toward mitigating risk down to a level that's acceptable to me. The MTB rider very likely looked, saw that they could make it and went for it.
My earlier post about being captain of your own ship cuts both ways. Riders can and must attend to their own safety, and at the same time give others credit for doing the same.

It's easy to find fault with what another rider does, but your judgement is limited because you have no idea of the other rider's thinking. What I said years ago about another rider active on this forum. "For all we know his skills may be excellent, allowing him to ride like an idiot without actually being one", may apply here.
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Old 10-04-23, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
I approach all of my activities with an eye toward mitigating risk down to a level that's acceptable to me. The MTB rider very likely looked, saw that they could make it and went for it.
Busy intersection. Beginning of rush hour traffic. MTB flew through red light.

I don't mean to be, but I am being, argumentative... if the driver of a car hit a bicyclist while running a red light and stated "I looked and I thought I could make it so I went for it" I am quite certain no one would defend them.

I have spent all of my driving life, except the past 5 months, looking at this through the eyes of a motorist. Getting frustrated with bicyclists who display the same disregard for road rules while on the road. Knowing full well what happens when a bicyclist and a motorist collide. Now I find myself getting frustrated with motorists though I am well aware that the burden of self-preservation rests solely with me and I will gladly drop my bike rather than potentially hit or be hit by a car, even if I am over-reacting. I read an article recently that went over the trials and tribulations of bicyclists who were recovering, physically and mentally, from serious accidents. It was from a cyclist magazine. To their credit they cited a study (which I did not vet) that stated that cyclists are responsible for just over 50% of motor vehicle collisions involving cyclists. I'm pretty sure motor trend has never written a similar article regarding motorists involved in similar collisions.

The whole point of my post, lost in everything else, was seeing the blatant, and unnecessary, disregard for road rules by a cyclist while I was riding a bike (as opposed to being in a car). And while the MTB did indeed get through the red light without incident. I am pretty sure he did not get to wear the yellow jersey the next day.
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Old 10-04-23, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by a1a
Busy intersection. Beginning of rush hour traffic. MTB flew through red light.

I don't mean to be, but I am being, argumentative... if the driver of a car hit a bicyclist while running a red light and stated "I looked and I thought I could make it so I went for it" I am quite certain no one would defend them.

I have spent all of my driving life, except the past 5 months, looking at this through the eyes of a motorist. Getting frustrated with bicyclists who display the same disregard for road rules while on the road. Knowing full well what happens when a bicyclist and a motorist collide. Now I find myself getting frustrated with motorists though I am well aware that the burden of self-preservation rests solely with me and I will gladly drop my bike rather than potentially hit or be hit by a car, even if I am over-reacting. I read an article recently that went over the trials and tribulations of bicyclists who were recovering, physically and mentally, from serious accidents. It was from a cyclist magazine. To their credit they cited a study (which I did not vet) that stated that cyclists are responsible for just over 50% of motor vehicle collisions involving cyclists. I'm pretty sure motor trend has never written a similar article regarding motorists involved in similar collisions.

The whole point of my post, lost in everything else, was seeing the blatant, and unnecessary, disregard for road rules by a cyclist while I was riding a bike (as opposed to being in a car). And while the MTB did indeed get through the red light without incident. I am pretty sure he did not get to wear the yellow jersey the next day.
It seems in discussions about bicyclists rolling through stops and red lights that the remarks most often include "without looking." I contend that there's no way for the majority of observers to determine that. If it was as common as it is purported to be, it'd be reflected in the fatality statistics. It's not. It's probably best to speak from of position of certainty rather than conjecture. Anything wrong with that?
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Old 10-05-23, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
It seems in discussions about bicyclists rolling through stops and red lights that the remarks most often include "without looking." I contend that there's no way for the majority of observers to determine that. If it was as common as it is purported to be, it'd be reflected in the fatality statistics. It's not. It's probably best to speak from of position of certainty rather than conjecture. Anything wrong with that?
Same applies to the credibility of reports from posters who allegedly observe numerous drivers not watching the road at all while texting in moving traffic.
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Old 10-05-23, 05:31 AM
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Easy enough to see drivers actually on their phones as I roll up beside them on the bike lane at a stop light. I've seen plenty of these on my daily commute. They are literally holding the phone in their hands, either while stopped, or while rolling up to a stop. An action that is illegal in my parts and subject to a fine of $800 and 3 demerit points. I don't know how many of those drivers hold on to their phones while traffic begins to move, but it's not a stretch to think that a few of them will want to finish their texting before putting the phone down, even while moving.
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Old 10-05-23, 06:04 AM
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These cyclists that blow thru stop signs/lights, I agree they're looking, but that's not the point. They do it in a way where they expect people to stop and wait until they, the cyclist, passes. It's as if they think they have some kind of unique privilege on the roadways.


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Old 10-05-23, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Easy enough to see drivers actually on their phones as I roll up beside them on the bike lane at a stop light. I've seen plenty of these on my daily commute. They are literally holding the phone in their hands, either while stopped, or while rolling up to a stop. An action that is illegal in my parts and subject to a fine of $800 and 3 demerit points. I don't know how many of those drivers hold on to their phones while traffic begins to move, but it's not a stretch to think that a few of them will want to finish their texting before putting the phone down, even while moving.
I see so much of this recently while riding, it's sickening. And while driving I'm stuck behind more and more cars that don't go when the light turns green. I can see them looking down at their lap in their side view mirror. I'll never understand being addicted to a phone like this. There's enjoyment to be had just sitting at a light, looking around at homes, businesses, nature, people, cars, you never know what you'll see. Seems so much better than whatever bs is going on in a phone, not to mention so much safer.

sorry for the old man rant.
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Old 10-05-23, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Easy enough to see drivers actually on their phones as I roll up beside them on the bike lane at a stop light. I've seen plenty of these on my daily commute. They are literally holding the phone in their hands, either while stopped, or while rolling up to a stop. An action that is illegal in my parts and subject to a fine of $800 and 3 demerit points. I don't know how many of those drivers hold on to their phones while traffic begins to move, but it's not a stretch to think that a few of them will want to finish their texting before putting the phone down, even while moving.
Posters observing some that people are holding a phone while stopped at a light and then claiming (or ranting) that the drivers are texting while driving down the road without looking where they are going, is no different than claiming/speculating that bicyclists who were observed not following traffic controls at an intersection never looked before proceeding through the intersection, or even if they did look they probably don't look at other times.
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Old 10-05-23, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Posters observing some that people are holding a phone while stopped at a light and then claiming (or ranting) that the drivers are texting while driving down the road without looking where they are going, is no different than claiming/speculating that bicyclists who were observed not following traffic controls at an intersection never looked before proceeding through the intersection, or even if they did look they probably don't look at other times.
Do you actually believe people don't frequently text while driving? I see it pretty often at 55+ mph on the highway into town.
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Old 10-05-23, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Posters observing some that people are holding a phone while stopped at a light and then claiming (or ranting) that the drivers are texting while driving down the road without looking where they are going, is no different than claiming/speculating that bicyclists who were observed not following traffic controls at an intersection never looked before proceeding through the intersection, or even if they did look they probably don't look at other times.
Posters who have a habit of writing the same nonsensical dribble response to other posts citing or not citing reasonable or non-reasonable argument to the contrary, or in support, may or may not be making his/her point, even if there is or isn't a point to be made.
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Old 10-05-23, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Do you actually believe people don't frequently text while driving? I see it pretty often at 55+ mph on the highway into town.
I question the validity of reports from posters actually frequently observing motorists speeding down the highway, ignoring the road in order to text on the phone in their lap.

An exception might be those motorists who believe the hype about the capability of driver assist features (Level 2 autonomy) in their high tech vehicle makes it a Full Self Driving car and they can safely not pay attention to where the car is going and let the car "drive itself" for awhile. These deluded and dangerous jokers just might use their time behind the wheel to text, engage in sexual activity, play video games, watch a movie, play paddy cake with passengers or some other activity that prevents them from monitoring at all times the operation of their vehicle and road/traffic conditions. That scenario is a problem of reckless and/or stupid drivers exceeding the limited self-driving capability of their allegedly high tech vehicles (which require 100% monitoring by the driver) in order to participate in non driving activities that are unsafe because these activities keep the driver's eyes off the road for excessive amount of time.

Whether bicyclists can observe texting activities while bicycling on or along a 55mph highway, or are threatened by such alleged activity is also questionable.
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Old 10-05-23, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Easy enough to see drivers actually on their phones as I roll up beside them on the bike lane at a stop light. I've seen plenty of these on my daily commute. They are literally holding the phone in their hands, either while stopped, or while rolling up to a stop. An action that is illegal in my parts and subject to a fine of $800 and 3 demerit points. I don't know how many of those drivers hold on to their phones while traffic begins to move, but it's not a stretch to think that a few of them will want to finish their texting before putting the phone down, even while moving.
It is also not a stretch to imagine that some people conflate talking on a phone while watching the road, as the same thing as staring downwards into their lap texting on a phone; and also that some people believe that if they can imagine something wrong might be occurring or might happen in the future, then it is occurring and will continue to happen in the future.
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Old 10-05-23, 04:04 PM
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There are some posters here who will make a distinction between talking on a hand-held device and texting on said device when the law does not care which it is, as it is still distracted driving, and illegal in most jurisdiction. Locally here it carries a fine of up to $1000 and 3 demerit points for first offense, and escalates for subsequent offenses. The same posters will ignore stats which show a distracted driver is four times more likely to get into a crash than a non-distracted to make a nonsensical point. Such posters could be likened to the donkey in the fable of the Tiger and the Donkey.

Edit:
In Ontario, to receive a speeding ticket of $1000, you'd have have been going 100 km/h over the posted speed limit! That's how serious the laws views distracted driving.

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Old 10-05-23, 04:51 PM
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I try my best to be an upstanding representative of the cycling community. I tend to wave at cars that yield for me to show appreciation. People already hate us, so no point adding fuel to the flame. Though my first rule of road cycling is not to ride like a road cyclist expecting everything will go according to the rules of the road. I try to ride in a way that guarantees my safety and I always make sure I have a bail out like a sidewalk or avoid roads with no shoulder. I also time when I ride through certain areas to avoid road congestion or heavy traffic. My goal is always to get back home in one piece!
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Old 10-05-23, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
There are some posters here who will make a distinction between talking on a hand-held device and texting on said device when the law does not care which it is, as it is still distracted driving, and illegal in most jurisdiction. Locally here it carries a fine of up to $1000 and 3 demerit points for first offense, and escalates for subsequent offenses. The same posters will ignore stats which show a distracted driver is four times more likely to get into a crash than a non-distracted to make a nonsensical point. Such posters could be likened to the donkey in the fable of the Tiger and the Donkey.

Edit:
In Ontario, to receive a speeding ticket of $1000, you'd have have been going 100 km/h over the posted speed limit! That's how serious the laws views distracted driving.
Yes, it is nonsensical point referencing "stats" about probability of accidents presumably derived from lab tests and other non real world driving events.

Regardless of the ticket fee schedule, bicyclists and everyone else including the driver run a higher risk from drivers not watching where they are going, than those who are. It should be obvious even to people who see texters behind every steering wheel that there would be a humongous spike in collisions caused by drivers who are not looking where they are going if the texter patrols' observations about moving motorist texting had any validity at all.
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Old 10-05-23, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I question the validity of reports from posters actually frequently observing motorists speeding down the highway, ignoring the road in order to text on the phone in their lap.

An exception might be those motorists who believe the hype about the capability of driver assist features (Level 2 autonomy) in their high tech vehicle makes it a Full Self Driving car and they can safely not pay attention to where the car is going and let the car "drive itself" for awhile. These deluded and dangerous jokers just might use their time behind the wheel to text, engage in sexual activity, play video games, watch a movie, play paddy cake with passengers or some other activity that prevents them from monitoring at all times the operation of their vehicle and road/traffic conditions. That scenario is a problem of reckless and/or stupid drivers exceeding the limited self-driving capability of their allegedly high tech vehicles (which require 100% monitoring by the driver) in order to participate in non driving activities that are unsafe because these activities keep the driver's eyes off the road for excessive amount of time.

Whether bicyclists can observe texting activities while bicycling on or along a 55mph highway, or are threatened by such alleged activity is also questionable.
I don't know what your roads or drivers are like there in Burlington Iowa, so I won't try to speak for the validity of your report that you don't actually "frequently observe motorists speeding down the highway, ignoring the road in order to text on the phone in their lap." You should apply the same concept when you evaluate reports from others who live in other places. My work commute is a little over 50 miles a day in the Seattle metro area and I can tell you that I observe people texting (and doing other things) while driving daily. On the interstate, on city streets, while stopped at lights, you name it. It's illegal, but absolutely rampant.

As to whether others are "threatened by this activity", I'll add that it is not uncommon for me to approach a driver from behind and observe that they may be drunk, only to pass them and look over to see them on their phones. The other night I was coming home on the interstate and watched a car swerving out of his lane multiple times. I approached and passed, giving a lane in between us for safety. I looked over and saw the phone mounted below the rear view mirror, in landscape mode, with a video or movie playing. You can't tell me you think these drivers are safe.
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Old 10-05-23, 05:04 PM
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Old 10-05-23, 05:57 PM
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Here are some 'nonsensical' stats on distracted driving, derived from non non-real world safety agencies such as CAA, NHTSA, insurance institutes, Transport Canada...

Distracted Driving Statistics - CAA National
Distracted Driving Statistics & Facts In 2023 – Forbes Advisor
Distracted Driving Dangers and Statistics | NHTSA
Distracted Driving Statistics in 2023 | The Zebra
Distracted driving (canada.ca)
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Old 10-05-23, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mcours2006
Here are some 'nonsensical' stats on distracted driving, derived from non non-real world safety agencies such as CAA, NHTSA, insurance institutes, Transport Canada...

Distracted Driving Statistics - CAA National
Distracted Driving Statistics & Facts In 2023 – Forbes Advisor
Distracted Driving Dangers and Statistics | NHTSA
Distracted Driving Statistics in 2023 | The Zebra
Distracted driving (canada.ca)
"Distracted driving" stats and estimates about the number of collisions that are related to "distracted driving" is not a report about the results of texting drivers no matter how much you want to imagine that texting, talking on a phone and distracted driving are the same thing and can be considered interchangeable terms for an identical activity
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Old 10-05-23, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I question the validity of reports from posters actually frequently observing motorists speeding down the highway, ignoring the road in order to text on the phone in their lap.
It's not that they don't look at the road. It's that they are moving down a road with a dynamic traffic picture, they are only marginally engaged, and they often violate laws while doing it. Today I was driving down the interstate in the right lane at 70ish MPH. Ahead in the left lane was a slower moving car that drifted out of its lane on both the left and right sides several times as I closed the distance. While beside the vehicle, it drifted into my lane. The driver was fiddling with his phone. That's quite a different scenario from a rider making sure no cars are coming and running a red light.
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