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Car Strikes 11 year old Girl-on video-driver arrested

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Car Strikes 11 year old Girl-on video-driver arrested

Old 10-19-23, 10:25 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Troul
where are legal guardians of the child?
the child should not be left unsupervised if both parties are not to be viewed equally.
A public property that has held such an incident isn't the same if it happened out in front of the child's house imo.
Nope. She needs to learn how to be independent and not depend on her parents for everything. She was very lucky, and I hope she learns from this.
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Old 10-20-23, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul
where are legal guardians of the child?
the child should not be left unsupervised if both parties are not to be viewed equally.
If that were common practice children would effectively never be alone in a public place. Which would have radically altered my childhood. Making mistakes as children is part of the experience of growing up and without that experience we would be deficient as adults. I'm damn glad I was free to roam and make mistakes when I was young. And I made plenty.
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Old 10-20-23, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by retswerb
Ok, but... one of these parties is an adult operating a potentially deadly motor vehicle that requires training and a license. The other is a child on a bike. Let's not act like these two are on the same playing field.
Maybe. children shouldn't be allowed to ride bicycles outside of protected places and without adult supervision?

Where else is this child riding that they have managed not to have already been hit?

There doesn't seem to be much of a reason that this cyclist needed to rely on the driver to do the proper thing.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-20-23 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 10-20-23, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Korina
Nope. She needs to learn how to be independent and not depend on her parents for everything. She was very lucky, and I hope she learns from this.
Pretty much except it's kinda weird the cyclist wasn't able to avoid this dopey collision. It doesn't seem likely that this was the "closest call" they ever experienced (and it wasn't close at all).

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2...e-netherlands/

Originally Posted by Korina
ETA: The kid was working with the facilities she'd been given, which begs the question; why is that path there and why isn't there a crosswalk or some kind of marking to indicate kids may come through?
There's nothing that indicates the gap through the trees was her only option. People take shortcuts (that aren't necessarily the safest option) all the time. It doesn't appear to be an intentional access (which is why there isn't a "crosswalk").

There appear to have been two completely-feasible opportunities to avoid this dopey collision.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-20-23 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 10-20-23, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard
Driving off without making contact with the child's family and/or calling the police is unconscionable. Who does something like that? I swear, a person on a bike is somehow seen as something other than human.

I'd like to buy that child a new bike and a helmet. Is anyone aware of any associated crowdfunding?
I wouldn't be too concerned about that. I'm certain the insurance settlement/lawsuit will more than likely pay for the new bike and helmet.
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Old 10-20-23, 11:36 AM
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One reason I never had kids.
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Old 10-20-23, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
There's nothing that indicates the gap through the trees was her only option. People take shortcuts (that aren't necessarily the safest option) all the time. It doesn't appear to be an intentional access (which is why there isn't a "crosswalk").

There appear to have been two completely-feasible opportunities to avoid this dopey collision.
People do take shortcuts, and I'm sure the school knows it's there, it just never occurred to anyone that this would happen; it never occurs to anyone until it happens. Hopefully the school will mark it now, or block it off, likely whichever's cheaper.
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Old 10-20-23, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by flangehead
Three seconds is not a lot of time.
It's the standard yellow light length for speed limits under 30mph, and 15mph is the standard speed limit for parking lots. Just food for thought.
Definitely wondering if the driver was distracted or impaired, but good point on the A pillar. I have had it blocking my view of pedestrians before, but knew they might be there.
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Old 10-20-23, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
If that were common practice children would effectively never be alone in a public place. Which would have radically altered my childhood. Making mistakes as children is part of the experience of growing up and without that experience we would be deficient as adults. I'm damn glad I was free to roam and make mistakes when I was young. And I made plenty.
I wasn't placing which type of parenting I'd lean towards.
looking at it from a liability placement standpoint.
Can't treat both under different standards if the expectations are both held equally responsible.
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Old 10-21-23, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul
Can't treat both under different standards if the expectations are both held equally responsible.
It's not reasonable to expect the two to be held equally responsible. Once again: one of these parties is an adult who is a licensed driver, the other is a child who cannot be held legally responsible for anything. It makes perfect sense to hold them to different standards.
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Old 10-21-23, 03:46 AM
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Of course, parenting comes first and foremost and the parents are responsible for the accident. Your responsibility, as a parent, doesn't end with just giving birth to your children, but extends to raising them and guiding them every step of the way. If that is not the case, then what is the difference between you and a donkey. You, as a parent, should give freedom to the children, but at the same time you should also tell them what is right and wrong, what are the dangers involved in engaging in a particular conduct, etc. You, as a parent, have life experiences and has a lot more knowledge, while the children do not, and as a consequence, they are prone to make mistakes, such as this accident, or even commit crimes.

Society has come to a point where we are right now, because people do not value relationships even with their own family members the same way and to the same extent as they used to before. People have no value for the other person's life anymore. Not everyone, but I see a lot of them with that attitude and mindset.
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Old 10-21-23, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Korina
People do take shortcuts, and I'm sure the school knows it's there, it just never occurred to anyone that this would happen; it never occurs to anyone until it happens. Hopefully the school will mark it now, or block it off, likely whichever's cheaper.
The problem here is not the shortcut (which wasn't particularly dangerous anyway).

Taking this shortcut would have been safe if the cyclist (and the driver!) took some basic minor level of care. This would help in other situations too.

Originally Posted by Korina
Nope. She needs to learn how to be independent and not depend on her parents for everything. She was very lucky, and I hope she learns from this.
Yet you think she needs to be prevented from using a not-particularly-dangerous shortcut.

Last edited by njkayaker; 10-21-23 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-21-23, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by flangehead
Video starts at :48; cyclist comes into view at :50 and is hit at :53 and the crash comes to a complete stop at :58

Observations:

a) Looking at the angles, it is possible the cyclist was behind the A-pillar for a critical part of the 3-seconds.
b) Three seconds is not a lot of time. Reaction time is variable but say 1-1.5 seconds.
c) Very hard to understand why motorist did not stop sooner. The vision and sound directly in front of the motorist should have generated a reaction. A stop time of 5 seconds is more consistent with 50 mph, and the motorist clearly wasn't driving that fast.

I'm interested in what lessons I can take away from this crash. "Whose fault is it?" may be of interest to lawyers and insurance companies but a hit cyclist hurts a lot more than the downside of a dented fender. Bad subsequent behavior is what it is.

So takeaways:
1) Those pesky A-pillars can block a motorist's view of me. My spine should tingle when I'm at that angle...
2) I often succumb to the "there's no one around" logic to relax my situational awareness when I'm on the road. That's really only valid when there are no vision blockers .. and most of the time, there are vision blockers..

I grouse a bit about the "blame game" because all of us on the road need to do what we can to put lots of slices of swiss cheese in the way of an injury. In this particular case, at a school, we ask people to drive slower because children are less aware.
Why didn't the cyclist not stop?

Originally Posted by flangehead
I'm interested in what lessons I can take away from this crash.
You aren't that interested because you ignore half of the story.

This situation doesn't seem like it should have been beyond the ability of a cyclist (even an 11 year old) to help themselves.

It doesn't seem like this would have been the most risky or difficult situation the cyclist has had to deal with (even. possibly, on this ride).
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Old 10-21-23, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
…This situation doesn't seem like it should have been beyond the ability of a cyclist (even an 11 year old) to help themselves.

It doesn't seem like this would have been the most risky or difficult situation the cyclist has had to deal with ….
You are correct. Basic situational awareness on the part of the cyclist would have averted this crash.

Two defensive drivers walk into a bar. Nothing happens.

A defensive driver and a careless driver walk into a bar. Nothing happens.

Two careless drivers walk into a bar and someone gets hurt.

This isn’t a joke.
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Old 10-21-23, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The problem here is not the shortcut (which wasn't particularly dangerous anyway).

Taking this shortcut would have been safe if the cyclist (and the driver!) took some basic minor level of care. This would help in other situations too.


Yet you think she needs to be prevented from using a not-particularly-dangerous shortcut.
I didn't say she shouldn't use the shortcut. I hoped she would learn to pay extra attention in this kind of situation.
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Old 10-21-23, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyes Roll
Of course, parenting comes first and foremost and the parents are responsible for the accident.

Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading, I denied
That leaves only me to blame 'cause Mama tried
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Old 10-21-23, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Mama tried to raise me better, but her pleading, I denied
That leaves only me to blame 'cause Mama tried
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Old 10-21-23, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
i tend to assume intoxication when people leave a scene like that.
+1

Rather than self pity and assuming people don't care about bikes, i see this as someone leaving because they had a real reason to do so, ie. possible DWI.

Hit and run is all to common these days, possible because more drivers have legals reasons to do so, such as no insurance, expired/revoked/no license, possible DWI, stolen car, etc. As long as the possible penalties for hit and run are less than than other possibilities, we should expect people to make a logical choice, to minimize the possible consequences. IMO hit and run should create a refutable presumption of DWI, so drivers have more reasons to stay vs. leaving.

That said, I expect that the driver will correctly claim that she did stop, and left only after the girl said she was OK. Ultimately, it'll be up to prosecutors and possibly jurors to assess how to weight a victim statement that they're OK, specifically when that victim is a child.

Having aired my piece, I'm happy to leave this to those who's job is to deal with this.
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Old 10-22-23, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
+1

That said, I expect that the driver will correctly claim that she did stop, and left only after the girl said she was OK. Ultimately, it'll be up to prosecutors and possibly jurors to assess how to weight a victim statement that they're OK, specifically when that victim is a child.
MA law stipulates that a motorist must make known their name, home address, and vehicle registration number when there is a collision involving property damage or personal injury. This woman did not do that.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...er90/Section24

https://www.mass.gov/doc/5190-leavin...a-121/download

Some might try to claim that the victim saying she was "okay" cleared the motorist of her duty to stay and identify herself. However, it's well known that the adrenaline rush from being struck by a car temporarily masks the extent of one's injuries. Moreover, anyone with half a brain should reasonably expect that a front-over collision such as this would result in some level of injury even if it's just scrapes and bruises.
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Old 10-22-23, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
IMO hit and run should create a refutable presumption of DWI
+1

that'd never get passed into law.
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Old 10-23-23, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Korina
Originally Posted by Korina
ETA: The kid was working with the facilities she'd been given, which begs the question; why is that path there and why isn't there a crosswalk or some kind of marking to indicate kids may come through?
I didn't say she shouldn't use the shortcut. I hoped she would learn to pay extra attention in this kind of situation.
You suggested that this short cut had issues. It's implying that the short cut, as it exists, isn't really usable in a safe way.

As far as I can tell. it's not particularly hazardous. It doesn't seem more hazardous than many other short cuts.
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Old 10-23-23, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
You suggested that this short cut had issues. It's implying that the short cut, as it exists, isn't really usable in a safe way.

As far as I can tell. it's not particularly hazardous. It doesn't seem more hazardous than many other short cuts.
You're right. Sorry, sick and grumpy.

If it was in my neighborhood, I'd be advocating for the school to make it safer; either remove some of the foliage for better visibility, paint a crosswalk, something else, or all of the above; a Google maps shot would be helpful. But it's not in my neighborhood, so all I can do is gripe. And sneeze. Pardon me.
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Old 11-12-23, 10:21 PM
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What if the kid had been running? She wasn't going real fast on her bike. The car however was well over a safe speed for a parking lot (10mph) and quadruple the speed that is reasonable for a school parking lot (5mph) as there are very likely to be kids at any time. Car driver is 100% liable as she was operating at unsafe speed and possibly trespassing(why do people in cars think they can cut through parking lots) and was not exercising any due care, she was either looking at her phone or inebriated, or it was intentional.
. I ask about running because a child run over in a school parking lot by some jerk who wasn't supposed to be there , without a bike involved, would have most parents groups wanting the woman's head.
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Old 11-12-23, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
+1

that'd never get passed into law.
Just FYI, another option is to pass laws like those which exist in Illinois. In Illinois, it doesn't matter if one is sober, or not. If one leaves the scene of crash that caused an injury, that's a Class 2 felony -- punishable by 3 to 7 years in prison. Leaving the scene of a fatal crash is a Class 1 felony, and carries a 4 to 15 year sentence.

This does absolutely no good what-so-ever, because the cops refuse to even investigate hit-and-runs, but at least in-theory, if the cops and district attorneys were not all on-strike or simply too indolent to work, this would fix the problem to which you refer.

Last edited by TC1; 11-13-23 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 11-13-23, 11:54 PM
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What an interesting thread!

Some people seem convinced that cars drivers should always be blamed in an accident between a bicyclist and a car.
Rules are there for a reason, they work only if everyone follows them.

Whatever happened to teaching children to look both ways and be careful when crossing a street or road? I taught our children those simple rules and in addition to conventional traffic rules, I always emphasized to them that when you are riding A pedestrian and a bicyclist have to do everything to avoid getting hit by a car for a simple reason, it doesn’t matter whose fault is the accident, you, as a bicyclist, will lose.

Someone has an interesting comment that a motorist must not expect a bicyclist to break cadence… so much for rules!

After the discovery of antibiotics and vaccines, “survival of the fittest” went out of the window. Now with the “social engineering” where rights are irrationally assigned to certain favored parties, we are seeing common sense being ignored. Collectively, humanity is going in reverse-evolution. 😉

A few years ago, a bicyclist came flying out from a sidewalk on to the main street, apparently intending to cross it without breaking cadence (must have heard and believed the expectation from motorist) as my wife was making a right turn on a green light and hit her car on the door… not breaking cadence thing didn’t work out too well for the bicyclist. My wife asked the lady if she needed ambulance, the lady said no but my wife called the police, just in case. The bicyclist was found to be alright by the EMT, the police gave a written warning to the bicyclist… back then, the police was more about enforcing rules as they were meant.
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