Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Car Strikes 11 year old Girl-on video-driver arrested

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Car Strikes 11 year old Girl-on video-driver arrested

Old 11-14-23, 02:19 AM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,497

Bikes: Sekine 1979 ten speed racer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1477 Post(s)
Liked 635 Times in 435 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
...
Rules are there for a reason, they work only if everyone follows them.

Whatever happened to teaching children to look both ways and be careful when crossing a street or road? ....
Whatever happened to all those lessons drivers took at driving school especially the 5 points of driving and all those traffic laws. Rules are there for a reason. How many times have I seen drivers cut off pedestrians just as they step off the curb or walking across the crosswalk on their own walk signal? Too many.
Daniel4 is offline  
Likes For Daniel4:
Old 11-14-23, 02:44 AM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked 328 Times in 256 Posts
Originally Posted by Daniel4
Whatever happened to all those lessons drivers took at driving school especially the 5 points of driving and all those traffic laws. Rules are there for a reason. How many times have I seen drivers cut off pedestrians just as they step off the curb or walking across the crosswalk on their own walk signal? Too many.
As I stated, rules work only if everyone follows them. If from that, you surmised that I am advocating that car drivers need not follow traffic rules, either I’m very poor in communicating or you are mistaken… may be both!
Alan K is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 11:19 AM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,715

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3801 Post(s)
Liked 6,987 Times in 2,828 Posts
Originally Posted by Bleu
What if the kid had been running? She wasn't going real fast on her bike. The car however was well over a safe speed for a parking lot (10mph) and quadruple the speed that is reasonable for a school parking lot (5mph) as there are very likely to be kids at any time.
It was an empty parking lot on a Sunday afternoon. It's a hard sell arguing 5 mph is a reasonable speed limit in that situation.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 12:12 PM
  #54  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,479

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12430 Post(s)
Liked 7,300 Times in 3,856 Posts
Originally Posted by Korina
People do take shortcuts, and I'm sure the school knows it's there, it just never occurred to anyone that this would happen; it never occurs to anyone until it happens. Hopefully the school will mark it now, or block it off, likely whichever's cheaper.
I think the school should put chains or gates up on the driveways on weekends to keep lost Floridians from driving around in the parking lot while looking at their GPS screens.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Likes For LesterOfPuppets:
Old 11-14-23, 12:15 PM
  #55  
TC1
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Illinois
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times in 74 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
As I stated, rules work only if everyone follows them.
No, rules only work when enforced.

For example, we have a "rule" against murdering people. Not everyone follows that rule, but since it is pretty-well enforced, it generally works. In areas where it is not enforced -- mostly some inner-city neighborhoods -- that rule is widely ignored and does not work.
TC1 is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 12:45 PM
  #56  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,479

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12430 Post(s)
Liked 7,300 Times in 3,856 Posts
Looks like it took place at Central School. The driver entered the school grounds from Central Street, drove almost all the way through to Bedford Street before seeing that the exit to Bedford was gated off, then did a U-turn around an island of grass, then proceeded back towards Central Street.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XWzTnGUq9Ur757us6

At the Central St. entrance there's a green sign for the MUP there that kinda makes the school driveway look like a street, which may have encouraged the driver to enter the school grounds. The Google Streetview car even drove into the parking lot, taking a similar path that this driver did.



Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 11-14-23 at 12:53 PM.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 11-14-23, 01:07 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked 328 Times in 256 Posts
Originally Posted by TC1
No, rules only work when enforced.

For example, we have a "rule" against murdering people. Not everyone follows that rule, but since it is pretty-well enforced, it generally works. In areas where it is not enforced -- mostly some inner-city neighborhoods -- that rule is widely ignored and does not work.
Thank you for pointing out the patently obvious!

In most civilized and well-functioning societies, if someone doesn’t follow rules, there are consequences for infractions and the society takes corrective actions.
Alan K is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 02:02 PM
  #58  
Newbie
 
Bleu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
It was an empty parking lot on a Sunday afternoon. It's a hard sell arguing 5 mph is a reasonable speed limit in that situation.
So the car should NOT have been there at all. Kids play on school grounds because it's where they are, the kid had no reason to expect a speeding car , especially on a Sunday. I agree that gates to keep out cars would have prevented this. As the crash was so ambiguous, because neither party was paying attention the adult should be charged with felony criminal trespass , at the very least.
Bleu is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 03:09 PM
  #59  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,715

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3801 Post(s)
Liked 6,987 Times in 2,828 Posts
Originally Posted by Bleu
So the car should NOT have been there at all. Kids play on school grounds because it's where they are, the kid had no reason to expect a speeding car , especially on a Sunday.
Cars aren't allowed in school parking lots on weekends? That's news to me. And, 20 mph is hardly speeding -- it's a typical school zone speed limit.
tomato coupe is offline  
Likes For tomato coupe:
Old 11-14-23, 08:34 PM
  #60  
Newbie
 
Bleu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 74
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 16 Posts
Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Cars aren't allowed in school parking lots on weekends? That's news to me. And, 20 mph is hardly speeding -- it's a typical school zone speed limit.
20 in a parking lot is speeding. No; cars are not allowed in parking lots of closed businesses and government facilities. The school zone speed limit only applies to the highway/street going past the school. Technically the kid may be trespassing, but kids go where they're familiar ,which is the school - and they're kids. Aaand the person operating the car possibly has a license, even if it is a class D issued in Florida, and should know right from wrong.
Bleu is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 08:47 PM
  #61  
TC1
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Illinois
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times in 74 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
Thank you for pointing out the patently obvious!
If it is so patently obvious, why did you claim otherwise?

Rules do not -- as you claimed -- require complete compliance in order to work, which is fortunate, as complete compliance is never going to happen.

Originally Posted by Alan K
In most civilized and well-functioning societies, if someone doesn’t follow rules, there are consequences for infractions and the society takes corrective actions.
Only if, as recently explained, someone is enforcing those rules. Switzerland is the most "civilized and well-functioning" society on the planet -- by HDI -- and yet no one there followed the rules which apply to banking operations, because there's been no enforcement historically. Now that some enforcement is happening, we see that the Swiss were laundering money for all manner of criminals and degenerates.
TC1 is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 09:00 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,715

Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3801 Post(s)
Liked 6,987 Times in 2,828 Posts
Originally Posted by Bleu
20 in a parking lot is speeding.
Neither the car nor the bicyclist were going close to 20 mph.
tomato coupe is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 09:53 PM
  #63  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 824
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 470 Post(s)
Liked 328 Times in 256 Posts
Originally Posted by TC1
If it is so patently obvious, why did you claim otherwise?

Rules do not -- as you claimed -- require complete compliance in order to work, which is fortunate, as complete compliance is never going to happen.



Only if, as recently explained, someone is enforcing those rules. Switzerland is the most "civilized and well-functioning" society on the planet -- by HDI -- and yet no one there followed the rules which apply to banking operations, because there's been no enforcement historically. Now that some enforcement is happening, we see that the Swiss were laundering money for all manner of criminals and degenerates.
Did I, where?

Do you not understand the meaning of word most?
I get the impression that you like to waste time of others… and I’m not going to reward you any longer by participating.
Alan K is offline  
Old 11-14-23, 10:16 PM
  #64  
TC1
Full Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2023
Location: Illinois
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 275 Post(s)
Liked 115 Times in 74 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
Did I, where?
Originally Posted by Alan K
As I stated, rules work only if everyone follows them."
That's complete nonsense, since rules are not universally obeyed.

Originally Posted by Alan K
I get the impression that you like to waste time of others… and I’m not going to reward you any longer by participating.
Don't spout nonsense, and I won't have to waste my time correcting you.
TC1 is offline  
Old 11-16-23, 11:50 AM
  #65  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,198
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4182 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times in 892 Posts
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Looks like it took place at Central School. The driver entered the school grounds from Central Street, drove almost all the way through to Bedford Street before seeing that the exit to Bedford was gated off, then did a U-turn around an island of grass, then proceeded back towards Central Street.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/XWzTnGUq9Ur757us6

At the Central St. entrance there's a green sign for the MUP there that kinda makes the school driveway look like a street, which may have encouraged the driver to enter the school grounds. The Google Streetview car even drove into the parking lot, taking a similar path that this driver did.
Waaay before you can see that little sign, the entrance looks like a school parking lot.



Last edited by njkayaker; 11-16-23 at 12:17 PM.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 11:59 AM
  #66  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,479

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12430 Post(s)
Liked 7,300 Times in 3,856 Posts
Oh that part of the post is gone. Welp, here's where I think she rode through. Cruise down that sidewalk for a bit, then cut right through where that white car is parked.

EDIT: now this references the post below.



Last edited by LesterOfPuppets; 11-16-23 at 12:27 PM.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:19 PM
  #67  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,198
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4182 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times in 892 Posts
Where was the cyclist coming from?

The building at the upper left is a Verizon facility (not a store). North of that is a las office. The other areas are private houses. It seems there might not actually be an easy way to get to where she came from.

Her path in the parking lot was about where the red line is. The driver's path is the magenta line.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ce...0gjl?entry=ttu

njkayaker is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:24 PM
  #68  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,479

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12430 Post(s)
Liked 7,300 Times in 3,856 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
Waaay before you can see that little sign, the entrance looks like a school parking lot.


It does look like a school parking lot, but the long green sign also makes that north driveway look like a road, to me.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:32 PM
  #69  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,198
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4182 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times in 892 Posts
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
It does look like a school parking lot, but the long green sign also makes that north driveway look like a road, to me.
It looks overwhelming like a school parking lot. For a very long time. And before the little sign can really be seen.

If, somehow, somebody let the last-second view of the sign override the strong impression it was a school parking lot. the fairly long time actually driving in that school parking lot should have corrected any idea it was a street.

I'm not sure what your point is. That some how thinking it was a street explains running over the cyclist?
njkayaker is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:35 PM
  #70  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Pittsboro, NC
Posts: 150

Bikes: 2003 Specialized Allez

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked 21 Times in 19 Posts
I experienced something almost similar.


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Q+..._3jk?entry=ttu


In 1981(14yrs.-old), I was on Foxhall Rd. in DC, when. I made a right turn on to Q St.. As I was making the right turn, the driver behind me. Tried to pass me in the turn. My bike went halfway under her car. My pedal dug a quarter-size scar in my foot. The only way she knew she hit me, is. From my yelling at the top of my lungs. The driver who hit me, was older, and. A lot of other drivers' saw her do it. So, They kept her from fleeing.
Chistophe516 is offline  
Old 11-16-23, 12:38 PM
  #71  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,198
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4182 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times in 892 Posts
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
Oh that part of the post is gone. Welp, here's where I think she rode through. Cruise down that sidewalk for a bit, then cut right through where that white car is parked.

EDIT: now this references the post below.


That makes sense. Maybe she crossed the street from the CVS. Or she was riding on the sidewalk "contraflow" and took the short cut.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-16-23 at 12:44 PM.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:41 PM
  #72  
cowboy, steel horse, etc
 
LesterOfPuppets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The hot spot.
Posts: 44,479

Bikes: everywhere

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12430 Post(s)
Liked 7,300 Times in 3,856 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
I'm not sure what your point is. That some how thinking it was a street explains running over the cyclist?
I'm of the belief that gating off that driveway while the school is closed would reduce the amount of traffic in the parking lot during closed hours. I presume there was a LOT more cut-through traffic before they gated off the Bedford St. driveway.

I also think that marking that MUP with something that looks much less like a street sign would result in a reduction in people from Florida from thinking they found a magic shortcut over to Bedford St.
LesterOfPuppets is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 12:51 PM
  #73  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,198
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4182 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times in 892 Posts
Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
I'm of the belief that gating off that driveway while the school is closed would reduce the amount of traffic in the parking lot during closed hours. I presume there was a LOT more cut-through traffic before they gated off the Bedford St. driveway.
That makes sense.

It makes much more sense that drivers knew it was a short cut than it does than people are thinking it's a street.

There might be reasons not to block that entrance.

Originally Posted by LesterOfPuppets
II also think that marking that MUP with something that looks much less like a street sign would result in a reduction in people from Florida from thinking they found a magic shortcut over to Bedford St.
I think the pictures from the road make the sign being a source of confusion a weak argument. The "fog line" isn't broken (as it would be for a street) and there's no crosswalk.

"People from Florida" are not likely to be aware of such shortcuts (that would require a fair amount of familiarity with the area). (The people seeing this as a short cut are locals.)

Even so, this collision was easy enough to avoid by both parties independently.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-16-23 at 01:54 PM.
njkayaker is online now  
Old 11-16-23, 02:23 PM
  #74  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,412

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1201 Post(s)
Liked 298 Times in 228 Posts
Well no wonder she got lost. There isn't a square block within forty miles. I actually was 2 miles from there on the way to Cape Cod. Lucky it was a marked highway. Dead end cul-de-sacs all over. I doubt many of the locals can navigate many of those streets. Damn idiotic spaghetti streets are all they build now.
And I think you have all been misled by the half speed videos. They were going 12 and 15 mph I think. There was NO need for that girl to ride thru that bush.
There's actually both a Police and fire station only 200 yards from there.
GamblerGORD53 is online now  
Old 11-18-23, 08:19 AM
  #75  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 889

Bikes: 2017 Co-op ADV 1.1; ~1991 Novara Arriba; 1990 Fuji Palisade; mid-90's Moots Tandem; 1985 Performance Superbe

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 549 Times in 321 Posts
Originally Posted by njkayaker
Even so, this collision was easy enough to avoid by both parties independently.
Though we certainly have some dangerous infrastructure in North America, a lot of damage could be averted by users that prioritize safe arrival over fast arrival.
flangehead is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.