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Intelligent Speed Assistance

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Intelligent Speed Assistance

Old 01-02-24, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Awareness does influence behaviors. That's why they put unmanned, non-ticket-giving, information-only speed-gun mph signs on the sides of roads. Just seeing their speed shown to them from an external source makes drivers slow down.
We also have a lot of these non-ticket cameras that "shame" speeding drivers with flashing graphics. They work particularly well in residential areas where a mildly speeding driver (say going 35 in a 30) is highlighted to pedestrians. Shameless drivers will simply ignore them, but most do slow down if they trigger the warning, especially if there are pedestrians around to see it.
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Old 01-02-24, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan K
Every time I am around a big city, I feel like if I didn’t go at least 10 miles over the speed limit, someone is going to hit me in the back.
You can always 'park' yourself behind a big truck. Or if you want a better view and no rocks into your windshield, in front of a big truck.
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Old 01-02-24, 01:51 PM
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I don't know ... I'm going to throw y'all's a free New Year's compliment, and observe that just about anyone reading this forum is solidly Middle Class, and so are friends, family and associates. I'm not often in a car. Several times a year at most. Still, even I have noticed that the cars most of you are driving now, ordinary mid-end, SUV's and sedans, are all but self-driving! Intelligent Speed Assistance, check. Intelligent Lane Monitoring, check. Intelligent Collision warning, check. Intelligent Emergency Brake Application, check! What am I missing? It seems to me that, for a large cohort of the driving public, the o.p. is preaching to the choir.

Are driver on driver, driver on ped, driver on cyclist traffic incidents going down for all the advancements in vehicle technology? As I understand it, no. In fact, the opposite. The "Vision Zero" outlooks of most major cities that were begun pre-Covid are no longer on track. Traffic deaths continue to mount year over year, and excessive speed gets too much of the blame. It's like blaming the $95B shoplifting crisis on one group of people and focusing the majority of Merchandise Retention programs on that one group.

There is only one thing, and one thing only, that is going to bring about a timely culture change in how America drives, and that is draconian overhaul of the sentencing laws for moving violation offences. It's the drivers that are the last mile here, and until the drivers are replaced, totally, from the vehicle control loop, you will continue to have traffic deaths. But the Level IV, and higher, AI it would take to really, totally, replace a human driver is decades off, if ever. In the meantime, the threat of, and (impartial) application of, PRISON time, for injuring or killing a vulnerable road user, WOULD do, in mere weeks, what years of hand-wringing and technology innovation has failed to deliver.
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Old 01-02-24, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
You can always 'park' yourself behind a big truck. Or if you want a better view and no rocks into your windshield, in front of a big truck.
In front of truck will be safer… as long as trucks are American and driven by American drivers.
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Old 01-02-24, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
I don't know ... I'm going to throw y'all's a free New Year's compliment, and observe that just about anyone reading this forum is solidly Middle Class, and so are friends, family and associates. I'm not often in a car. Several times a year at most. Still, even I have noticed that the cars most of you are driving now, ordinary mid-end, SUV's and sedans, are all but self-driving! Intelligent Speed Assistance, check. Intelligent Lane Monitoring, check. Intelligent Collision warning, check. Intelligent Emergency Brake Application, check! What am I missing? It seems to me that, for a large cohort of the driving public, the o.p. is preaching to the choir.
I am the OP, and I agree the BF demographic is solidly Middle Class. I don't know to what extent I am preaching to the choir when there are recalcittrant choirboys like yourself to turn friendly discussion acrimonious.

My family does not have the kinds of vehicles you describe. Our newest car is a 2019 Camry (so nondistinct I have a hard time finding it in a parking lot! I love how anonymous and commodified it is -- as well as dependable 30MPG), and it has some lane assistance, following-distance features, but my wife hates that stuff and turns all that off. That effectively means I don't get to use it, because if I drive that car and leave those things on I'd catch hell for it later. She even hates traditional dumb cruise control (in on our older cars, 2010, 2006) and gets annoyed with me when I use it (multi-hour freeway road trips only, not everyday driving, not even everyday freeway driving)

Are driver on driver, driver on ped, driver on cyclist traffic incidents going down for all the advancements in vehicle technology? As I understand it, no. In fact, the opposite. The "Vision Zero" outlooks of most major cities that were begun pre-Covid are no longer on track. Traffic deaths continue to mount year over year,
This is what I am seeing from the stats as well

and excessive speed gets too much of the blame.
How much blame is the appropriate amount of blame? If speed control is low hanging fruit (not sure there is political will such that that is actually the case), why not pluck it?

It's the drivers that are the last mile here, and until the drivers are replaced, totally, from the vehicle control loop, you will continue to have traffic deaths. But the Level IV, and higher, AI it would take to really, totally, replace a human driver is decades off, if ever.
I am on board with this, although I'm a bit more optimistic and think that Level V is merely a bunch of years away. Once 'drivers' can do other things with their time, I think most will lose interest in driving as an 'experience'. That's the same thing I want out of imposed speed governors; to break the spirit of the American car-horny consumer, and get them to resign themselves to boring driving (in boring cars), which happens to also be safer (and less consumeristic).

In the meantime, the threat of, and (impartial) application of, PRISON time, for injuring or killing a vulnerable road user, WOULD do, in mere weeks, what years of hand-wringing and technology innovation has failed to deliver.
Where's the petition I can sign? Do you think there is more political will for this proposal than for mandatory universal speed governing? America has lost its capacity to care about 40K car deaths per year, it's the price we are willing to pay for 'freedom'. (However, let ONE idiot not paying attention to their Level II Tesla die, and it hits every news outlet...)
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Old 01-02-24, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
I am the OP, and I ….

My family does not have the kinds of vehicles you describe. Our newest car is a 2019 Camry (so nondistinct I have a hard time finding it in a parking lot! I love how anonymous and commodified it is -- as well as dependable 30MPG), and it has some lane assistance, following-distance features, but my wife hates that stuff and turns all that off. That effectively means I don't get to use it, because if I drive that car and leave those things on I'd catch hell for it later. She even hates traditional dumb cruise control (in on our older….


Where's the petition I can sign? Do you think there is more political will for this proposal than for mandatory universal speed governing? America has lost its capacity to care about 40K car deaths per year, it's the price we are willing to pay for 'freedom'. (However, let ONE idiot not paying attention to their Level II Tesla die, and it hits every news outlet...)
Given that your wife refuses to use many safety features built in your car, have you tried preaching at home before signing up any petitions?

As for America ‘losing’ its capacity to do something you deem essential, rather than hyperventilating about it, perhaps it will help if you were to look at the historical data (available for almost a century). You will see that since the 1930s till now, the number of miles and number of automobiles driven by American drivers have steadily increased, the population has increased and the auto accident related deaths per million miles per million people is steadily decreasing.

Here you go… digging it up took less time than to type this response:

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-ve...%20improvement.

Last edited by Alan K; 01-02-24 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 01-02-24, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan K
Given that your wife refuses to use many safety features built in your car, have you tried preaching at home before signing up any petitions?

As for America ‘losing’ its capacity to do something you deem essential, rather than hyperventilating about it, perhaps it will help if you were to look at the historical data (available for almost a century). You will see that since the 1930s till now, the number of miles and number of automobiles driven by American drivers have steadily increased, the population has increased and the auto accident related deaths per million miles per million people is steadily decreasing.

Here you go… digging it up took less time than to type this response:

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-ve...%20improvement.
Except not. The graph in your link shows a marked uptick over the last few years

The OP quote notes "Safety advocates say the U.S. lags behind Europe, where speed assistance technology is already widespread. It's set to become mandatory there for all new passenger cars next year."

In another thread (I can't find it now), I posted a really informative graph showing how the rest of the developed world has been steadily decreasing in auto deaths, other countries do not have the same recent spike as the US.
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Old 01-02-24, 10:59 PM
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You have to look at the pattern corrected for number of miles travelled and total number of cars in the second graph (lower two curves), which gives information on deaths per 100,000,000 miles and deaths per 10,000 cars. Absolute numbers are not useful without a meaningful denominator.

I personally doubt that in US the majority will be very happy to have a mandatory speed killer installed in their cars but we shall see…
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Old 01-02-24, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Except not. The graph in your link shows a marked uptick over the last few years

The OP quote notes "Safety advocates say the U.S. lags behind Europe, where speed assistance technology is already widespread. It's set to become mandatory there for all new passenger cars next year."

In another thread (I can't find it now), I posted a really informative graph showing how the rest of the developed world has been steadily decreasing in auto deaths, other countries do not have the same recent spike as the US.
Comment withdrawn to appease others.
Thanks for a reminder folks. .

Last edited by Alan K; 01-03-24 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 01-02-24, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan K
What’s next, stop eating juicy steaks and lose our guns like Europeans?
Dream on!
Best steak I ever had was French. OMG. Interesting that **** isn't censored anymore. I can't say I would be all that upset if they were to be lost.
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Old 01-02-24, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Best steak I ever had was French. OMG. Interesting that **** isn't censored anymore. I can't say I would be all that upset if they were to be lost.
Comment withdrawn to appease others.
Thanks for a reminder folks. .

Last edited by Alan K; 01-03-24 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 01-03-24, 12:25 AM
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Best steak I remember ever having was at an Argentinian steak house in Amsterdam
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Old 01-03-24, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Best steak I ever had was French. OMG. Interesting that **** isn't censored anymore. I can't say I would be all that upset if they were to be lost.
I can't say I'd be all that upset if people stuck to cycling and stopped using this forum to promote their politics. The referenced post has absolutely nothing to do with cycling safety.
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Old 01-03-24, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
I can't say I'd be all that upset if people stuck to cycling and stopped using this forum to promote their politics. The referenced post has absolutely nothing to do with cycling safety.
None of the posts in this thread have anything to do with bicycling, and some have everything to do with some posters flexing their social warrior chops and dreaming about imposing their personal visions of moral imperatives on those they consider less worthy than themselves.

What are the mods waiting for?
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Old 01-03-24, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
What are the mods waiting for?
They are waiting for you to flag the posts that violate TOS ...
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Old 01-06-24, 09:09 AM
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Technology can easily solve it

Originally Posted by skidder
How are they going to determine the speed limits on the road someone is driving. It could be a 25mph zone, a 65 mph highway, or a highway in open country area with an 80mph limit (Texas, I think?). Also variable areas, like a 45 mph street, but if there's a school bus stop that would temporarily make it a 25 mph zone or even require a full stop. Lots of unanswered questions.
Combining GPS and speed zone data real-time will do it. Google maps already shows speed limit for highways. For temporary situations universal transponder can communicate speed limits to vehicles in proximity.
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Old 01-06-24, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Cannondale2000
Combining GPS and speed zone data real-time will do it. Google maps already shows speed limit for highways. For temporary situations universal transponder can communicate speed limits to vehicles in proximity.
Metadata isn't always correct. When I managed speed zoning for a state DOT, I would receive unhappy correspondence from irate commercial drivers who had been sanctioned or terminated by their employers for "unsafe driving" as the metadata used to punish them didn't match up with actual official speed regulations or posted signs.

If someone challenges a citation in court, there should be legally admissible documentation of which authority approved a temporary speed reduction and when it applies. CAV proponents see adding transponders and other tools to roadside devices as a simple added step, whereas agencies, contractors, and others have noted the costs and possible liability exposure.
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Old 01-06-24, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur
Metadata isn't always correct. When I managed speed zoning for a state DOT, I would receive unhappy correspondence from irate commercial drivers who had been sanctioned or terminated by their employers for "unsafe driving" as the metadata used to punish them didn't match up with actual official speed regulations or posted signs.

If someone challenges a citation in court, there should be legally admissible documentation of which authority approved a temporary speed reduction and when it applies. CAV proponents see adding transponders and other tools to roadside devices as a simple added step, whereas agencies, contractors, and others have noted the costs and possible liability exposure.
Having owned several cars that are capable of reading road signs in both real time and from GPS data, they very rarely get the speed limit wrong. For a while the speed limit in our village was incorrect on the Google mapping data (40 instead of 30) but my car could read the 30 limit signs and so it never caused a problem. The only reason I knew that the map was wrong was when I drove a car without real time sign recognition.

I would put good money on human drivers making far more speed limit errors than a modern car with GPS mapping and real-time sign recognition. The mapping metadata quality would also improve if it became a legal responsibility. It’s already pretty good on UK roads.
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Old 01-06-24, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Apparently that's already the situation with the big rigs. I'm sure you've been behind one big rig overtaking another at speed right? There's a woman sitting in jail right now because she forced an unsafe pass, killing another driver going "the limit". It was deemed 'road rage'. We already have a big problem with road rage. I don't drive. I absolutely have no dog in this hunt. Y'all's go ahead and make the roads 'safer' with millions (yes, millions) of frustrated drivers limited to some arbitrary limit. Whee doggie, when the fur starts flying, it will truly be something to see.
Yes, all diesel engines are governed, always have been. BUT with the introduction of electronically controlled engines came the ability to set a top speed without affecting power ouput (early 90s in OTR tractors). So, the owner of the tractor sets a top speed which they believe will make it less likely their trucks will speed and get tickets( very low profit margins in trucking) hence 62, 65, 68 mph trucks. The notion that top speed can be set very accurately is proven by these things as on flat land they are dead on accurate. And they are NOT random speeds , 62 is used in a vehicle that may be expected to travel in Canada, as that is 100kph, 68 is for the USA exclusively and makes it difficult to get a ticket in a 70 zone; yes downhill it will go faster...
The police are far more likely to ticket a speeding truck than a car. The Department of Transportation keeps track of violations and will revoke a companies authority if they get too many violations. NONE of tbis is why over 80% of car-truck crashes are the car driver's fault, the biggest reason class A, cdl holders, HG vehicles whatever are so much safer than standard 'operator' license holders is because they are held accountable.
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Old 01-06-24, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Actually it is more of a recruitment/available worker issue than funding. All big cities are finding that there simply aren't enough people willing to do ANYTHING in the numbers that they were pre-Covid. My transit system has had a signing bonus of $7500 (up from $2500) and they have raised the hourly wage three times. It's now $28/hr. and they still are short of bus/train operators. Critically short. The police dept. is short hundreds of officers and there simply aren't enough people without criminal records and/or the willingness to work among the increasingly violent and unhinged populace (same reason bus/train operators shy away) to staff the system properly.
Bus driver $28 / hrs? Where is this ? Maybe I should move....
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Old 01-06-24, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleu
Bus driver $28 / hrs? Where is this ? Maybe I should move....
$31-$44/hr for a municipal transit bus driver here.
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Old 01-06-24, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleu
Bus driver $28 / hrs? Where is this ? Maybe I should move....
Trimet Transit System of Portland, OR. Training period (and first 18 months) - $28.22/hr. Source.
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Old 01-06-24, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
$31-$44/hr for a municipal transit bus driver here.
A driver tops out at $37.62/hr in PDX. It likely goes further than in The Bay Area.
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Old 01-07-24, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Alan K
Japan and US are not comparable in a great many other ways too.

Japan’s population is quite homogeneous, all 125 million or so, they have have less than 3 million non-Japanese.
Traditionally, they are very law-abiding people and very compliant. Perhaps things might be changing in Japan now. I recall one incident about an employee in my group from Japan. His reason to go back to Japan was that US environment is bad for his family, his wife sometimes talks back to him so it’s time to go home. Before leaving, he invited my wife and I for dinner and his wife would not sit down to eat with us. In fact, we were surprised to see (like in old movies), she would walk backwards from the table after serving various dished… and this was the spoiled lady by American culture!

Unlike Japan, US population is most diverse and some people truly do not share the same values. It will not be easy to convince them all to do things, that they equate to their freedom, in a uniform way. You may recall that there are areas here where DOT has no mandatory requirement to wear a helmet while using a motorcycle. You combine this diversity of sensibilities with the newly determined necessity of reducing the number and budget of police force (that would be needed to enforce laws), chances are very slim that the wishful thinking of some would ever materialize.
And the above points are relevant to only the legal citizens of this country. Quickly increasing illegal aliens (not sure what the kosher term is these days, please fill in the correct descriptor) do drive, without license/training, cause accidents and not held accountable for anything.

[About 40 years ago someone rear ended my car on a highway in TX in a traffic jam. The pickup driver entered the highway increasing his speed, as one normally does, without paying any attention that the traffic in the main lanes wasn’t moving. I happened to be the one in his way, and the impact dragged my car into the car in front me. The guy from truck simply exited and ran away, leaving his truck - never to be found! Well, the police probably never looked for him. They told me that he was probably an illegal Mexican, they see it all the time in stolen vehicles, obviously no insurance or registration. I should get my insurance to pay for damages.]

It’s a little more complicated here.
I agree with your points, and pleasantly surprised by a good discussion of Adaptive Cruise Control (as some of my old employers called it) here on BF! Another diversity factor in the USA is that the US roads have a variety of vehicle ages and equipment. Even if NHTSA uses FMVSS to mandate centralized speed control AND has all the relevant location data, Americans have very durable cars which drive perfectly well even after 12 years on the road - same for the rest of the Americas and Europe. For a centralized speed control system, for example with more tech like centralized computing of required speed limits, broadcasting all that data to key points on the road network, and then broadcasting it to vehicles which are required to respond, the aliens have probably nearly landed. In English, I think the technical capability nearly exists and has been so for at least a decade. But until replacement of the automotive fleet can be directed and accelerated, only a small percentage of the automotive fleet will be able to comply.

So how much good can this possibly do? Can it even make any real improvement if the transition in the automotive fleet is not mandated and enforced?

Even if it is enforced, Americans will still be what we are. There will be many who will not accept it even if it is an enforced law.

My overall opinion about "Intelligent Speed Assistance" is that the social and societal problems are far bigger than the technological problems (the "alien technlogy").

We could ease into it by just increasing the capabilities of systems within cars on an incremental basis, allowing a slow enough transition to "track" the loss of capabiity in aging vehicles. But this is another rant topic altogether.
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Old 01-07-24, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad
Best steak I remember ever having was at an Argentinian steak house in Amsterdam
I had a fave Argentinian steak house in little city of Lippstadt, in Germany. My employer had its world HQ there, so that is where my "mother ship" travels took me.

To try to put bacs in some bike content, Lippstadt is a smallish industrial city of about 20,000, with surrounding towns and villages of another 15,000 roughly. Cars are plentiful, and bikes at the Main Plant and Technical center have about 3000 parked all day. The car/bike traffic patterns are worth studying. I don't know if they are standard in Germany or if the Lippstadt Law is specific to Lippstadt. Most cars have Navi, and at least the rental cars all display the posted speed limit on the information screens. Adaptive Cruise Control is present but only in the high $$ rental cars. It's automotive industry so most workers have relatively recent cars. Dearborn, MI is similar in terms of cars but much higher volume due to the presence of Ford and several hundred major suppliers. But many Ford engineers are also lovers of their older cars, and drive them regularly. Dearborn is not building in bike facilities, and Detroit is certainly in the lead as far as cycling facilities go. So the speed control measures raised in this thread will, in my assessment, have greater penetration and effectiveness in Germany than in Michigan. Other Michigan cities, such as Flint, Lansing, Grand Rapids, and Traverse City are pretty good, but are still less extensive and less urbanized than Detroit and Dearborn. As far as Michigan, I don't guess such a system will be deployed into the infrastructure in the near future.

Last edited by Road Fan; 01-07-24 at 09:25 AM.
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