Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

What happens when you build a MUP without bollards?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

What happens when you build a MUP without bollards?

Old 05-15-24, 12:36 PM
  #1  
Happy banana slug
Thread Starter
 
Korina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,764

Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1563 Post(s)
Liked 1,581 Times in 945 Posts
What happens when you build a MUP without bollards?

You don't even have to guess.

https://www.abc10.com/article/news/l...2-324e696eae95
Korina is offline  
Likes For Korina:
Old 05-15-24, 02:01 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,658

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 3,169 Times in 2,014 Posts
thats where easy revenue can be had... ticket them instead of adding obstructions that cost $
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 03:23 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,096

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5993 Post(s)
Liked 2,931 Times in 1,626 Posts
Yep, use cameras similar to speed cameras, and set a fine at $500.

They, can even do it on the cheap with signs "No cars", "$500 fine", "Camera Enforced".

If the signs alone don't work, then install the cameras.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 04:36 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
indyfabz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,669
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18596 Post(s)
Liked 16,094 Times in 7,557 Posts
Because bollards are so difficult to negotiate,
indyfabz is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 06:15 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,658

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 3,169 Times in 2,014 Posts
Because everyone can afford more taxes devoted to junk ideas.
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 07:29 AM
  #6  
I don't know.
 
RB1-luvr's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: South Meriden, CT
Posts: 2,094

Bikes: '90 B'stone RB-1, '92 B'stone RB-2, '89 SuperGo Access Comp, '03 Access 69er, '23 Trek 520, '14 Ritchey Road Logic, '09 Kestrel Evoke, '08 Windsor Tourist, '17 Surly Wednesday, '89 Centurion Accordo, '15 CruX, '17 Ridley X-Night, '89 Marinoni

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked 920 Times in 479 Posts
holy crap.
RB1-luvr is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 08:49 AM
  #7  
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,343

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6383 Post(s)
Liked 4,981 Times in 3,429 Posts
It's not surprising. What I didn't hear is that anyone has ever reported this to law enforcement for the year it's been said to be happening. But then again is there any enforcement built in to the ordinance that says motor vehicles are prohibited? Although perhaps reckless driving might apply in some states.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 12:46 PM
  #8  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2024
Location: Folsom,Ca
Posts: 181

Bikes: n+1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Liked 106 Times in 54 Posts
Sactown is wild, that's for sure. I do see local park rangers on side by sides and sometimes trucks but they are nice and leave us riders plenty of room. One of these days I will have to venture out there.
slow rollin is offline  
Old 05-16-24, 03:12 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: South shore, L.I., NY
Posts: 7,067

Bikes: Flyxii FR322, Cannondale Topstone, Miyata City Liner, Specialized Chisel, Specialized Epic Evo

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3367 Post(s)
Liked 2,198 Times in 1,246 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz
Because bollards are so difficult to negotiate,
They can be badly designed. The bollards on a path in Eisenhower County Park, in Hempstead, NY, were originally about 4 wide and painted the same color yellow as the lane divider paint on the trail surface. This resulted in many people not seeing the bollard, as it blended with the pavement lane markings. A buddy subsequently hit one while riding here, was really banged up. The county finally got around to painting the bollards bright red, I understand.
Steve B. is offline  
Old 05-18-24, 09:03 PM
  #10  
Happy banana slug
Thread Starter
 
Korina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,764

Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1563 Post(s)
Liked 1,581 Times in 945 Posts
Originally Posted by Steve B.
They can be badly designed. The bollards on a path in Eisenhower County Park, in Hempstead, NY, were originally about 4 wide and painted the same color yellow as the lane divider paint on the trail surface. This resulted in many people not seeing the bollard, as it blended with the pavement lane markings. A buddy subsequently hit one while riding here, was really banged up. The county finally got around to painting the bollards bright red, I understand.
The city put in a MUP a few years ago and at the trailhead some wit decided to install two bollards, one in the center of each lane. It was quickly fixed.
Korina is offline  
Old 05-19-24, 09:11 PM
  #11  
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 568 Post(s)
Liked 1,970 Times in 886 Posts
Bicyclists have been killed and crippled from hitting bollards, and agencies have paid out large judgments and settlements from bollard-related crashes.

Good current design guidance on the use of bollards is: "Don't use bollards unless the risk of motor vehicle intrusion is greater than the risk of a rider being seriously injured from hitting it." And: "Don't place bollards in the cyclist's direct path of travel, including tandems, trailers, and adult tricycles."

The MUTCD requires all obstructions in the traveled way of a path to be marked with retroreflective material.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 05-20-24, 04:22 AM
  #12  
...
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Whitestone and Rensselaerville, New York
Posts: 1,586

Bikes: Bicycles? Yup.

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Liked 1,707 Times in 778 Posts
A bike is an e-bike is a Tesla is a truck.
BTinNYC is offline  
Likes For BTinNYC:
Old 05-21-24, 12:59 AM
  #13  
Happy banana slug
Thread Starter
 
Korina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,764

Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1563 Post(s)
Liked 1,581 Times in 945 Posts
Originally Posted by RCMoeur
Bicyclists have been killed and crippled from hitting bollards, and agencies have paid out large judgments and settlements from bollard-related crashes.

Good current design guidance on the use of bollards is: "Don't use bollards unless the risk of motor vehicle intrusion is greater than the risk of a rider being seriously injured from hitting it." And: "Don't place bollards in the cyclist's direct path of travel, including tandems, trailers, and adult tricycles."

The MUTCD requires all obstructions in the traveled way of a path to be marked with retroreflective material.
Tell that to my local municipalities; they installed bollards at each end of every bridge, and our trails have a lot of bridges. I'd rather they put them where the cars can get in, but what do I know?
Korina is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 01:54 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,338
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1068 Post(s)
Liked 572 Times in 461 Posts
When I was young, older teen kids would run over peoples' mailboxes out at the road for fun. My dad got tired of it. He sunk a piece of solid steel, I think about 1-1/2" x 3" section, a few feet deep into concrete, sticking up from the ground about 10", with the mailbox post attached at the bottom with bolts sawn most of the way through. Next time a car hit it, the post bolts sheared off and it swung down, and the base took out I think, the right front tie-rod and lower control arm, this being based on the screeching sound and skid marks down the pavement of a sideways wheel. Next day, dad just raised the mailbox post and rebolted it. Never happened again.

The only problem I can see with bike trails, is that you need vehicle passage for ambulance/fire-department for injuries or sudden illness. Otherwise I'd say make passage at each access point, smaller than car-width except perhaps a micro, or a tight chicane. A bridge over a gap obstacle, can easily support 4 bikes and riders, but a car or truck instantly drops 2 feet, not enough to injure inside, but with sheer walls front and back, impossible for vehicle to drive out of there. To release vehicle, platform is unlocked and rotated 90 degrees to line up with escape path. And driver fined.
Duragrouch is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 06:28 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,096

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5993 Post(s)
Liked 2,931 Times in 1,626 Posts
Originally Posted by Korina
Tell that to my local municipalities; they installed bollards at each end of every bridge, and our trails have a lot of bridges. I'd rather they put them where the cars can get in, but what do I know?
A difference in worldview. You're focused on protecting cyclists. They're focused on protecting their bridges, and the fools who might try to drive over them.

Last edited by FBinNY; 05-21-24 at 08:31 AM.
FBinNY is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 07:46 AM
  #16  
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,343

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6383 Post(s)
Liked 4,981 Times in 3,429 Posts
Originally Posted by Korina
Tell that to my local municipalities; they installed bollards at each end of every bridge, and our trails have a lot of bridges. I'd rather they put them where the cars can get in, but what do I know?
Our MUP has a wooden bridge. It has a bollard in the middle of both entrances. The 3 or 4 newer bridges are steel and concrete. They don't have bollards.

While I don't know for certain I believe it's because the wooden bridge wasn't designed for the heavier axle loads of motor vehicles and the other bridges are. While motor vehicle use is prohibited, they still have to allow for emergency vehicles and maintenance crews along the path. The wood bridge is short and has a alternate path around it that maintenance and emergency vehicles can use.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 07:59 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,592

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5234 Post(s)
Liked 3,609 Times in 2,357 Posts
Originally Posted by indyfabz
Because bollards are so difficult to negotiate,
the one that my Wife crashed into & then fell & broker her wrist at, was the site of multiple crashes & the bollard is all scratched up from others crashing. the beach attendant nearby, who came running over to help, told me what a disaster that particular bollard was. when ppl cycle past the beach, they inevitably look at the beach. the bollard in question is not at the intersection of the road & the bike trail, it's several yards in. on the day she crashed, it was a sunny day & the tree shadows masked the bollard. she wears eye glasses, so her vision is not great to begin with & who knows if there was glare on her glasses. yes, I saw the bollard & rode a round it, but she did not. & others did not. sticking an object in the path of a moving vehicle, hoping that the obstacle will affect behavior isn't always successful. it relies on ppl reacting the way you expect. but ppl can be unpredictable

there are better ways to keep cars off bike paths. personally, I like the big gate or fence approach, which force a rider to walk thru a little maze of sorts, rather than ride straight

a bollard is like hoping ppl stop at stop signs
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 09:09 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,658

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 3,169 Times in 2,014 Posts
a wide variety of reasons for/against mup prevention designs exists, but the design should not cause more harm than good to the legit end user.
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 09:11 AM
  #19  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,658

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 3,169 Times in 2,014 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01
Our MUP has a wooden bridge. It has a bollard in the middle of both entrances. The 3 or 4 newer bridges are steel and concrete. They don't have bollards.

While I don't know for certain I believe it's because the wooden bridge wasn't designed for the heavier axle loads of motor vehicles and the other bridges are. While motor vehicle use is prohibited, they still have to allow for emergency vehicles and maintenance crews along the path. The wood bridge is short and has a alternate path around it that maintenance and emergency vehicles can use.
that seems to be answered within the same text,
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 09:19 AM
  #20  
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 15,343

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6383 Post(s)
Liked 4,981 Times in 3,429 Posts
Originally Posted by Troul
that seems to be answered within the same text,
But can you confirm it and say absolutely?

I would have thought that if the bridge wasn't suitable, that they'd also have weight limits posted for the bridge or axle weight limits. But they don't.

And the other path is just a section of old trail before they rerouted and put in the bridge.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 09:28 AM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 39,096

Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter

Mentioned: 141 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5993 Post(s)
Liked 2,931 Times in 1,626 Posts
Originally Posted by Troul
a wide variety of reasons for/against mup prevention designs exists, but the design should not cause more harm than good to the legit end user.
I have no problem with bollards centered at the ends of MUPs. But under some conditions.

First they must be over 5 feet tall, and painted brightly or reflective at the top. This would make them as visible as pedestrians.

Secondly, there must be a stop sign, warning, or other signage to slow cyclists as they approach.

If done right, they can be safe, or at least there would be no excuse for crashing into them.

Last edited by FBinNY; 05-21-24 at 10:20 AM.
FBinNY is offline  
Likes For FBinNY:
Old 05-21-24, 09:38 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
work4bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,968
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3869 Post(s)
Liked 1,082 Times in 816 Posts
The AT (Appalachian Trail) only permits foot travel. They have no bollards, they enforce it by making the trail extremely rugged and impassable by wheeled contraptions.


Maybe those to build MUPS can do the same thing, of course not as rugged




work4bike is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 02:43 PM
  #23  
Happy banana slug
Thread Starter
 
Korina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,764

Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1563 Post(s)
Liked 1,581 Times in 945 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
A difference in worldview. You're focused on protecting cyclists. They're focused on protecting their bridges, and the fools who might try to drive over them.
True, especially as all the bridges and boardwalks are aluminum (resistant to salt water), but I'd still rather they blocked car access.

The trail in Eureka has dark brown(!!) bollards; I questioned the color at the time, but the city guy responsible for getting the trail liked the color and wasn't interested in changing it; probably something to do with taggers. They at least have red/white reflective tape at the top now; woo. This is the same guy who left a 1/2 mile gap in the trail and called it done (he's the city manager now). My city of Arcata put in hi-viz yellow bollards because they're not stupid.
Korina is offline  
Old 05-21-24, 05:50 PM
  #24  
Cantilever believer
 
RCMoeur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,663
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 568 Post(s)
Liked 1,970 Times in 886 Posts
Sounds like a lot of people here are trying to design vehicle intrusion countermeasures on pathways. There has been decades of experience and practice in this area, most notably in the current AASHTO Guide for Bicycle Facilities. The bigger issue is that designers and agencies either aren't aware of this guidance or choose not to follow it. And I know of a few people who make a good living as expert witnesses testifying against public agencies in court when bicyclists are hurt, crippled, or killed on a path and it can be linked to a design or operational decision involving a fixed object in the travel way of a path.

A number of reports describe a situation where there are several riders on a path, a rider in the front of the group sees a bollard and swerves, and a following rider sees the bollard only after the rider ahead moves laterally and does not react in time to avoid a crash - even if it meets all recommended guidance on conspicuity and retroreflectivity.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
RCMoeur is offline  
Likes For RCMoeur:
Old 05-21-24, 06:26 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Troul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,658

Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 3,169 Times in 2,014 Posts
Originally Posted by FBinNY
I have no problem with bollards centered at the ends of MUPs. But under some conditions.

First they must be over 5 feet tall, and painted brightly or reflective at the top. This would make them as visible as pedestrians.

Secondly, there must be a stop sign, warning, or other signage to slow cyclists as they approach.

If done right, they can be safe, or at least there would be no excuse for crashing into them.
that just seems like a lot of work & thought to make it safe....
__________________
-YMMV
Troul is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.