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Coping with threats
Last few rides of mine I've seen regular displays of _______ on the part of motorists causing disruptions to traffic flow when I'm stopped, waiting to proceed either into or across an intersection until cross-traffic has cleared.
I'm patiently waiting, with my left foot on pavement and both hands on my brake levers, for vehicular traffic to clear so I can proceed. Invariably some motorist who legitimately has the right of way instead chooses to stop in their lane causing a back up of traffic behind them. All too often there's traffic coming from the direction opposite of theirs, as well as that both ahead of and behind me, that I also have to be aware of. I left that blank above, you can fill in your own word; several come to my mind. Sharing pavement with vehicle operators who choose to ignore or are oblivious to common Rules of the Road takes a certain toll on my bicycling motivation. |
weak minded
I’ll stick to the dirt. |
Yup. Drivers do this all the time. I wouldn't get upset if I was you - they are trying to be helpful.
Many drivers simply don't have the experience of how to best interact with bicycles. On a slightly related note, I was riding perhaps 25mph when a car came up on me from the opposite direction trying to turn left. After he rotated his wheels, he stopped because he realized I was too fast and he wasn't going to make it. I don't hold anything against him - he yielded the right of way. However, at that moment, I think he gained a bit of experience about how to better interact with bikes on the roads. |
It's part and parcel of being a cyclist in the US, but that doesn't mean you have to tolerate it. Yesterday evening a minivan driver buzzed me while his passenger attempted to knock me off my bike. I'm currently waiting to see if the sheriff's office tracked them down.
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Originally Posted by ScottCommutes
(Post 23555519)
I wouldn't get upset if I was you - they are trying to be helpful.
Originally Posted by ScottCommutes
(Post 23555519)
Many drivers simply don't have the experience of how to best interact with bicycles.
I'm certainly not going to endanger myself by taking them for granted with their 'helpful' gesture while there's a line of traffic behind them as well as the guy waiting to make a left turn in front of of them and the traffic behind him. That helpful gesture simply adds tension and uncertainty where it's inappropriate. |
Originally Posted by JW Fas
(Post 23555553)
It's part and parcel of being a cyclist in the US, but that doesn't mean you have to tolerate it. Yesterday evening a minivan driver buzzed me while his passenger attempted to knock me off my bike. I'm currently waiting to see if the sheriff's office tracked them down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7VrlWi4A |
I live in what's called one of the most deadliest States for cycling and my city is supposedly near the top for deadliest in the State. However, I don't get much in the way of aggressive behavior, a little, but not much, like I use to years ago and that was in various States.
As for as a motorist attempting to be "nice" and stop to allow me to go, despite them clearly having the Right-of-Way, that always has bugged me. What I've started doing, as I sit at an intersection, is to have my hands off the handlebars and just look like I'm looking around or down, but I'm actually looking for a break in the traffic so I can go. At Stop signs I almost never put my foot down on the ground, unless it's at a large intersection and I wave the car thru immediately and if they wave back, I just go, because if I don't it turns into a waving back-and-forth exercise, it's just quicker to go, especially since both my feet are already on the pedals. And if it's a large intersection with multiple cars at a Stop sign I put a foot on the ground and wave without looking, so I can't see them wave back at me. :ride: |
I'll spend minutes waiting these people out. I was waiting in the median of a street crossing on an MUP when a state policeman stopped. Because he did everyone else did. Eventually he sounded his klaxon, so I went. Years ago a woman threw a tray of french fries, told me to get that %&$@ing thing off the road; I wasn't in their way.
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Originally Posted by work4bike
(Post 23555646)
As for as a motorist attempting to be "nice" and stop to allow me to go, despite them clearly having the Right-of-Way, that always has bugged me.
What I've started doing, as I sit at an intersection, is to have my hands off the handlebars and just look like I'm looking around or down, but I'm actually looking for a break in the traffic so I can go.
Originally Posted by work4bike
(Post 23555646)
At Stop signs I almost never put my foot down on the ground... it's just quicker to go, especially since both my feet are already on the pedals.
I avoid waving mostly, unless it's just the two of us at a given intersection. This to avoid any possibility of adding anything potentially confusing to the circumstances. |
Originally Posted by work4bike
(Post 23555646)
I live in what's called one of the most deadliest States for cycling and my city is supposedly near the top for deadliest in the State. However, I don't get much in the way of aggressive behavior, a little, but not much, like I use to years ago and that was in various States.
As for as a motorist attempting to be "nice" and stop to allow me to go, despite them clearly having the Right-of-Way, that always has bugged me. What I've started doing, as I sit at an intersection, is to have my hands off the handlebars and just look like I'm looking around or down, but I'm actually looking for a break in the traffic so I can go. At Stop signs I almost never put my foot down on the ground, unless it's at a large intersection and I wave the car thru immediately and if they wave back, I just go, because if I don't it turns into a waving back-and-forth exercise, it's just quicker to go, especially since both my feet are already on the pedals. And if it's a large intersection with multiple cars at a Stop sign I put a foot on the ground and wave without looking, so I can't see them wave back at me. :ride: |
Originally Posted by spclark
(Post 23555495)
Last few rides of mine I've seen regular displays of _______ on the part of motorists causing disruptions to traffic flow when I'm stopped, waiting to proceed either into or across an intersection until cross-traffic has cleared.
I'm patiently waiting, with my left foot on pavement and both hands on my brake levers, for vehicular traffic to clear so I can proceed. Invariably some motorist who legitimately has the right of way instead chooses to stop in their lane causing a back up of traffic behind them. All too often there's traffic coming from the direction opposite of theirs, as well as that both ahead of and behind me, that I also have to be aware of. I left that blank above, you can fill in your own word; several come to my mind. Sharing pavement with vehicle operators who choose to ignore or are oblivious to common Rules of the Road takes a certain toll on my bicycling motivation. |
The driver is trying to be nice, but probably doesn't understand the crash risk they may be creating (and no, I'm not talking about rear-end crashes due to an unexpected vehicle stopping in the roadway.)
One common crash type involving motor vehicles and pedestrians or bicyclists is called "multiple threat". It happens where a motor vehicle yields to a crossing pedestrian or bicyclist, but the crosser is then struck by another motor vehicle traveling at normal street speed in another lane in that direction. In many cases, the second vehicle does not see the pedestrian or bicyclist until just before impact, as the first yielding vehicle blocks the view. A former friend of mine was hit by a vehicle going 40 mph and almost killed at a marked crosswalk several decades ago when she crossed where some vehicles yielded but one lane was open. Here's a slide from a presentation on this topic by Thomas, Cynecki, Zegeer, and Branyan*: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b5de8aeea8.png If you've ever wondered why the stop or yield line at crosswalks with multiple lane approaches is set ahead of the crosswalk by 50 feet or more with signs stating "Stop/Yield Here for Pedestrians", it's not for ped/bike comfort - it's to mitigate this crash type by requiring traffic to yield/stop far enough upstream so drivers' view of crossing pedestrians or bicyclists won't be blocked by a stopped or yielding vehicle. And this is one big reason why Mr. Overly Courteous is creating a significant risk. When this happens to me riding alone, I look to see if something else might be causing the slowing or stopping, make eye contact with the driver, and with as much authority as I can muster direct the vehicle to proceed with hand and arm motions - the arm nearest the vehicle (typically left) moving across my body pointing downstream, the other arm stationary pointing downstream. I understand as a trained traffic control professional that if the driver follows my directions and crashes (hits an unexpected vehicle, etc.) I may be creating risk exposure for myself, but I think it is preferable to the uncertain and less-controlled situation where you have a standoff and anyone might do anything. If I'm leading a group it's the same, but with an instruction to the group to not proceed regardless of the driver's motions or actions. *Disclosure: I am professionally acquainted with all these authors. |
Had a situation a few years ago, where I wanted to make a left turn across a very busy two lane road. I stood there waiting for a break in the traffic when an oncoming car suddenly stopped for me to cross - it was a 35 zone, but most people drive 10 over. Anywho, when the car stopped suddenly, the car behind them was taken off guard since it was an uncontrolled intersection with no reason for the car ahead to stop and slammed into the back of the car waiting for me. I felt terrible for the ‘nice guy’ doing me a favor.
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Originally Posted by RCMoeur
(Post 23556026)
The driver is trying to be nice, but probably doesn't understand the crash risk they may be creating (and no, I'm not talking about rear-end crashes due to an unexpected vehicle stopping in the roadway.)
One common crash type involving motor vehicles and pedestrians or bicyclists is called "multiple threat". It happens where a motor vehicle yields to a crossing pedestrian or bicyclist, but the crosser is then struck by another motor vehicle traveling at normal street speed in another lane in that direction. In many cases, the second vehicle does not see the pedestrian or bicyclist until just before impact, as the first yielding vehicle blocks the view. A former friend of mine was hit by a vehicle going 40 mph and almost killed at a marked crosswalk several decades ago when she crossed where some vehicles yielded but one lane was open. Here's a slide from a presentation on this topic by Thomas, Cynecki, Zegeer, and Branyan*: https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b5de8aeea8.png If you've ever wondered why the stop or yield line at crosswalks with multiple lane approaches is set ahead of the crosswalk by 50 feet or more with signs stating "Stop/Yield Here for Pedestrians", it's not for ped/bike comfort - it's to mitigate this crash type by requiring traffic to yield/stop far enough upstream so drivers' view of crossing pedestrians or bicyclists won't be blocked by a stopped or yielding vehicle. And this is one big reason why Mr. Overly Courteous is creating a significant risk. When this happens to me riding alone, I make eye contact, look to see if something else might be causing the slowing or stopping, make eye contact with the driver, and with as much authority as I can muster direct the vehicle to proceed with hand and arm motions - the arm nearest the vehicle (typically left) moving across my body pointing downstream, the other arm stationary pointing downstream. I understand as a trained traffic control professional that if the driver follows my directions and crashes (hits an unexpected vehicle, etc.) I may be creating risk exposure for myself, but I think it is preferable to the uncertain and less-controlled situation where you have a standoff and anyone might do anything. If I'm leading a group it's the same, but with an instruction to the group to not proceed regardless of the driver's motions or actions. *Disclosure: I am professionally acquainted with all these authors. You can blame the driver that waved them out, but who ever said drivers direct traffic intersection? It is obnoxious when drivers forget who has the right of way, but the only way to educate them is to refuse to step pedal into the intersection. Eventually, they get the idea. |
Originally Posted by spclark
(Post 23555495)
Last few rides of mine I've seen regular displays of _______ on the part of motorists causing disruptions to traffic flow when I'm stopped, waiting to proceed either into or across an intersection until cross-traffic has cleared.
I'm patiently waiting, with my left foot on pavement and both hands on my brake levers, for vehicular traffic to clear so I can proceed. Invariably some motorist who legitimately has the right of way instead chooses to stop in their lane causing a back up of traffic behind them. All too often there's traffic coming from the direction opposite of theirs, as well as that both ahead of and behind me, that I also have to be aware of. I left that blank above, you can fill in your own word; several come to my mind. Sharing pavement with vehicle operators who choose to ignore or are oblivious to common Rules of the Road takes a certain toll on my bicycling motivation.
Originally Posted by JW Fas
(Post 23555553)
It's part and parcel of being a cyclist in the US, but that doesn't mean you have to tolerate it. Yesterday evening a minivan driver buzzed me while his passenger attempted to knock me off my bike. I'm currently waiting to see if the sheriff's office tracked them down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZw7VrlWi4A |
Originally Posted by Kontact
(Post 23555986)
The driver was foolishly trying to be nice. You wave them on. What is it you have to "cope" with in this situation.
Several of these scenarios rapidly came to complicate things: – those coming up from behind them, only to be held back; – those coming from ahead but from the opposite direction then one stops to make a left turn to proceed in the same direction of travel as I would once they'd completed their turn; – drivers coming from the opposite direction impeded by one stopped to make a left turn; – drivers coming up behind me who must stop 'cause I've taken the lane as I approach the intersection; – drivers coming from ahead of me having one of three choices, all of which are affected by what the others might do. The 'courtesy' of that one driver stopping to let me cross quickly came to affect the dynamics of safe passage for all of the others late to the party. Would have been easy if the intersection was a four-way stop. Worst case being for me simply to dismount, roll my bike to the curb, then wait it out. The experience I had a few days ago that precipitated my starting this thread was the closest I've ever come; I'd never before thought to do that. The replies I've received (food for thought) brought me to this simple solution: take myself out of the equation. Thank you all. |
Originally Posted by RCMoeur
(Post 23556026)
One common crash type involving motor vehicles and pedestrians or bicyclists is called "multiple threat". It happens where a motor vehicle yields to a crossing pedestrian or bicyclist, but the crosser is then struck by another motor vehicle traveling at normal street speed in another lane in that direction. In many cases, the second vehicle does not see the pedestrian or bicyclist until just before impact, as the first yielding vehicle blocks the view.
Eastbound @ 6:45 AM late summer, had the rising sun in my eyes. On Chicago Avenue, a four-lane city street, two lanes each way. I'd been behind a van, both of us in the outside lane heading east when the van suddenly stopped mid-block. I glanced in my rear view mirror, saw nothing approaching on my left, changed lanes to pass the van only to encounter a bicyclist stopped, facing west, in that lane. Had enough time to react but not enough to avoid impact. Seems the van driver had seen the bicyclist, who'd been westbound on the other side of the street, cross the double yellow mid-block. The van blocked my view of the bicyclist, who survived but was seriously injured in the impact. Investigators' report to my insurance company later revealed the cyclist had been intoxicated at the time and apparently had a record of similar behavior. He received several thousand dollars in settlement for his injuries from my insurance, which also covered the rather extensive repairs to my vehicle. |
Originally Posted by spclark
(Post 23556151)
If I'm alone at a stop sign and there's just one vehicle that's got the right of way at an intersection, coping doesn't enter into the negotiating that may take place once they show their intent. I did what you suggest the other day, they chose to ignore my yielding to them what was their right of way.
Several of these scenarios rapidly came to complicate things: – those coming up from behind them, only to be held back; – those coming from ahead but from the opposite direction then one stops to make a left turn to proceed in the same direction of travel as I would once they'd completed their turn; – drivers coming from the opposite direction impeded by one stopped to make a left turn; – drivers coming up behind me who must stop 'cause I've taken the lane as I approach the intersection; – drivers coming from ahead of me having one of three choices, all of which are affected by what the others might do. The 'courtesy' of that one driver stopping to let me cross quickly came to affect the dynamics of safe passage for all of the others late to the party. Would have been easy if the intersection was a four-way stop. Worst case being for me simply to dismount, roll my bike to the curb, then wait it out. The experience I had a few days ago that precipitated my starting this thread was the closest I've ever come; I'd never before thought to do that. The replies I've received (food for thought) brought me to this simple solution: take myself out of the equation. Thank you all. |
Originally Posted by Kontact
(Post 23556232)
Just to be clear: You yielded to them, or you actually waved them on in the direction they should be moving like a traffic cop? The latter is what I do.
the hand signal they'd given me, then shook my head NO with a hand wave to indicate I wasn't going forward because of traffic approaching from my left (in the lane opposite to theirs) and that THEY should move ahead, given that they had the right of way from the beginning. All of this took place in a matter of a few seconds, by which time traffic in all four directions had been halted due to the first driver's stopping, then giving me a 'go ahead' contrary to normal (and proper IMHO) protocol. |
Originally Posted by RCMoeur
(Post 23556026)
The driver is trying to be nice, but probably doesn't understand the crash risk they may be creating...
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The other half of this is that you can stop traffic. If you edge out enough to get one car stopped without actually being in the lane, you can cross until the next lane and repeat that process until you get across. This is not something I would do lightly - but some places you're never going to get yourself or a group across the damn road if you don't force the issue. Some drivers will ignore you, but it only takes one per lane to get across.
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Originally Posted by Kontact
(Post 23556357)
The other half of this is that you can stop traffic.
Yes, I agree I maybe can stop one vehicle with this practice, but putting myself at risk of being hit by another driver's vehicle who wasn't paying attention to their surroundings isn't worth the risk. Dismounting - becoming a pedestrian - should invoke Pedestrian Right of Way, but theory vs. practice is where the crux of risky behavior factors in. |
I love taking the lane in a School Bus zone and force cars to slow down the the posted speed limit
:ride: |
By the way, the thread title make it sound like you are dealing with someone who is threatening you, when the actual topic is dealing with someone who is trying to accommodate you.
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I'm patiently waiting, with my left foot on pavement and both hands on my brake levers, for vehicular traffic to clear so I can proceed. Invariably some motorist who legitimately has the right of way instead chooses to stop in their lane causing a back up of traffic behind them. Hey - just take it easy - pay attention and ignore misguided well meaning motorists - do not acknowledge them - it begets more stupidity. |
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