barenakedbiker

Pictures: https://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56144.html 50 Arrested.
https://bikeblog.blogspot.com/2005/08...-arrested.html

https://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56033.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/131726-when-police-attacks.html
https://worldcarfree.net/nyc/letters.php
https://nyc.indymedia.org/en/2005/08/56034.html

scarry

This affects all Americans even if they don't ride bikes at all. This is a free speech and freedom of assembly issue. Are we going to sit down and allow a police state here in America?

filtersweep

Are your sure it isn't about annoying motorists, running through red lights, and creating general chaos?

scarry

Motorists do this every day to each other without complaint. I drive too and obey the speed limit, EVERY CAR IS PASSING ME. I never see a car come to a complete stop at a red light before making a right turn.
Cars are causing much more chaos than bike can ever hope for.
Your point?

https://www.cars-suck.org/

chroot

Let me get this straight, scarry. You see some motorists speeding, and others not coming to complete stops. This bothers you. On the other hand, you openly advocate bicyclists doing much worse. You claim to be pro-law and order, but you're really just anti-car. There is a difference.

While some drivers are less than vigilant about following traffic laws to the letter, they don't generally congregate in large numbers at rush hour with the express intent to flagrantly violate the traffic laws.

One of the main purposes of CM is cause disruption. Careless and lazy drivers, hazardous as they are, don't have this kind of agenda.

- Warren

barenakedbiker

One man's disruption is another's free speech.

chroot

The term 'free speech' has legal meaning, and is therefore not subject to such individual interpretation.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

In many respects, CM is not a peaceful assembly, and therefore does not fall under free speech protection. A group VC ride would; people crowding in the middle of intersections yelling "GRIDLOCK!" does not.

- Warren

barenakedbiker

The Police didn't think Kent State or the Selma March were peaceful either.

Hawkear

Do you do anything other than link and run? Why not put some actual self-generated content in your posts, other than a bunch of links?

brokenrobot

Just want to be totally clear on your argument here. Peacefully assembling in a park on public property while obeying all laws is worse than running red lights? Telling people that others will be peacefully assembling in a public park is worse than speeding? Those two constitutionally protected actions are what the City's lawsuit is about, as is explicitly clear if you've read the filings. If you haven't read the lawsuit and don't understand what the case is about, please refrain from ill-informed comment.

barenakedbiker

Why re-invent the wheel?

chroot

I don't recall ever saying this. If you're going to put words in my mouth, be kind enough to use words I actually might say.

I have said that the usual CM activities are worse than lazy motorists, including but not limited to: piling dozens of bikes into busy intersections, putting feet down, yelling "GRIDLOCK!" and stopping traffic for ten minutes; blocking motorist access to bridges which are legally closed to bicycle traffic anyway; kicking in fenders and headlights of cars which honk. I've personally witnessed all of these actions in San Francisco, and they all do much more harm than good for bicycle advocacy. As I've said before, I think a large percentage of CM participants couldn't give a rat's ass about new bike lanes and bike parking; they're just taking advantage of a golden opportunity to be dickheads.

I don't recall any CM riders peacefully assembling in a park, but I'm sure you'd love to tell me all about it. Go ahead.

- Warren

scarry

I'm on my way to SF on BART in just a few hours.
I take it you won't be there. But if you would like to see for yourself, and have a face to face chat, show up at JHP at 5 pm and look for me on a BikeE recumbent with a orange milk crate. I'll even buy you a beer.

Otherwise you can flame all you want here on BF, but it's nothing but bits in a computer somewhere.
Critical Mass becomes more relevent every month as we see the price of gas going up up up.

How high does gas have to get before EVERYONE is anti-car.

chroot

I consider myself much more a cyclist than a motorist, and honestly I'm probably as anti-car as you are, though I own one out of necessity (do you?). On the other hand, I think CM is a travesty, and a black eye for cycling advocacy in general. I'm sure you're a great guy, and I'd be happy to buy our second pints of Guiness, but I strongly disagree with the actions I've seen in CM, and I strongly disagree with your choices if you're the kind of person that commits those actions. (And, as I understand it, the SF CM is relatively tame compared to other cities.)


I've actually never heard of a single person -- ever -- turning to bicycle transportation after witnessing a CM. I'm not saying such people don't exist, but it's apparent that the number must be very small. I've also never heard a single motorist -- ever -- note that their appreciation for cyclists had improved as a result of witnessing a CM. As a result, I don't really think CM is relevant at all -- it seems to accomplish nothing but providing a couple hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment for would-be anarchists.

- Warren

thelung

Why do new yorkers always think they are so damn important? No your ad-hoc bike parade will not affect me.

Yoshi

I would like to take the time to point out (as I have pointed out in just about every other CM thread) that not all CMs are anarchist, anti-car, gridlock happy gangs of cyclists. In NYC, on the second friday of the month, a small (compared to manhattan) group of cyclists get together in Brooklyn for the Brooklyn Mass. Last month a few bicycle cops joined us. For the most part we rode vehicularly (as much as possible for a group of 50-60) stopping at red lights and signalling turns.

All of the anti-CM people need to realize that CM is not about anything in particular at all, except some cyclists meeting up and riding whereever. In some areas it becomes an anti-car demonstration but that is not universal. In fact, I'd wager that the majority of CMs are not overtly anti-car - it's just that the media has focused on the Manhattan (and a few other) CMs which have gotten out of hand (although in Manhattan the fault for that lies primarily with the police, and the out-of-town RNC protestors last August).

dobber

Heck, I am a New Yorker and I could give a big rat's ass about Critical Mass.

Is CM about free-speech or bicycle advocacy. Is it some anti-car gathering. Or just a opportunity for the lame to play anarchist for a couple hours.

chroot

I applaud you, Yoshi. I go on group rides of 40+ members at least twice a week, and haven't stood in an intersection or kicked in a fender yet. In fact, I've never been honked at, and even have had more than a few compliments on my bike and kit from motorists at stop signs. That's bicycle advocacy.


This is the Achilles' Heel of CM -- it has no direction. It is grassroots, unguided, and without purpose, and group mentality results in otherwise nice people doing some really crappy things to their fellow city residents.

If it were self-policed in some way -- even something so simple as a flyer passed around encouraging people to be civil -- I'd probably jump the fence and become a CMer. I really feel the actions of a few low-lifes ruins the whole CM experience (and public message), and am saddened that CM riders don't do a better job of discouraging the low-lifes in their midst. I love the idea of a huge group ride!

- Warren

barenakedbiker

What's wrong with THAT? It seems the NYPD has created a situation that it not just about a bunch of would-be anarchist riding around on bikes. Because of what NYPD has done, it's now about the First Amendment. It has always been about the First Amendment, the right to peaceably assemble.

We are still entitle to that, aren't we?

chroot

Can you read? Hello, McFly!

I never said anything was wrong with a couple of hours of adrenaline-pumping entertainment. What I said was that by being nothing but adrenaline-pumping entertainment, CM does not accomplish its supposed goals. When CMers get defensive, they universally start spouting off about their utopian car-free fantasyland, while forgetting completely that CM factually does little or nothing to bring our world closer to that utopia.

- Warren

barenakedbiker

It's not about the CM. It's about the First Amendment.

chroot

Yes, yes, that same old spin... "No, officer, we just came here to the park to hang out and enjoy the peace and tranqulitity. Sometimes I guess a lot of the other people here jump on their bikes and go kicking in car fenders, but golly gee, that's not what I'm here for. How can you arrest me, I wasn't intending on even getting on my bike, honest injun!"

CMers play such childish games.

- Warren

barenakedbiker

Will the person who sat down in front of bus, please stand up?

chroot

The First Amendment does not protect CM, because CM (intentionally or unintentionally) almost always turns into a fender-kicking disruptive malignancy. Get that through your skull. You don't have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater, and you don't have the right to cause mass disruption in a city.

- Warren

barenakedbiker

So, what do you do with all the motorists causing traffic jams? Haul them all off to jail too?