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Retraining motorists... to slow down.

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Retraining motorists... to slow down.

Old 11-04-05, 10:09 AM
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genec
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Retraining motorists... to slow down.

Here in San Diego two interesting reports were in the morning paper, both discussing slowing down motorists. One report is dealing with a couple of new traffic circles and future traffic circles to slow traffic down to 25MPH along a busy corridor. The report talks of having to "retrain" motorists and how some are complaining about the traffic circles. Apparently it is too inconvienent to drive 25. Some see it as a good idea, but there are naysayers.



The other report comes out of the Coronado area and again discusses lowering speeds on the island and how some folks just don't seem to "get it." The speed limit was lowered to 25MPH on the entire flat island. I loved this one comment from one woman that obviously doesn't "get it:"
"I think it's ridiculous," Gilveli said during a telephone interview. "This is supposed to be an island where people are relaxed (and on) vacation. They are not reckless drivers."
I guess in her mind "relaxed" means racing about like Indy drivers... sigh.

Incidently the island is very flat and a beautiful place to bike. 25MPH seems quite reasonable to me.
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Old 11-04-05, 11:11 AM
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I've always received mixed emotions when discussing roundabouts. I lived in Boston for about 5 years, and roundabouts seemed to be the rule rather than the exception. I've read statistics that they are safer than traffic lights, and they help keep traffic moving rather than the typical start/stop/start routine.

However, the entire time I lived there I probably saw the aftermath of or physically witnessed 100+ accidents at them. That may being saying a lot about Boston drivers , but it appeared as though people actually went faster through them than they would on a typical road with traffic lights.

In my lay-opinion I don't think they do anything for slowing down traffic, and they definitely didn't make the roads any safer in my experience.
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Old 11-04-05, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Incidently the island is very flat and a beautiful place to bike. 25MPH seems quite reasonable to me.
25 mph. on my bike seems like I'm really moving.

I timed my car commute and I averaged 25 mph.

The speed limit in my neighborhood is 25. If I set my cruise control tp 25, other drivers get extremely impatient. Must be a nervous condition...
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Old 11-04-05, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Orikal
I've always received mixed emotions when discussing roundabouts. I lived in Boston for about 5 years, and roundabouts seemed to be the rule rather than the exception. I've read statistics that they are safer than traffic lights, and they help keep traffic moving rather than the typical start/stop/start routine.

However, the entire time I lived there I probably saw the aftermath of or physically witnessed 100+ accidents at them. That may being saying a lot about Boston drivers , but it appeared as though people actually went faster through them than they would on a typical road with traffic lights.

In my lay-opinion I don't think they do anything for slowing down traffic, and they definitely didn't make the roads any safer in my experience.

Having driven the route on which the traffic circles are being installed both before and after the circles, I can assure you the circles DO slow traffic down.

Is it possible that they have been in place in Boston for so long that folks simply have no idea how bad it might be without them?

I know here traffic engineers seem to trying various attempts at slowing/controlling motorists... Traffic circles are just one approach... red light cameras are also being used to "enforce" red lights... another area where motorists seem to define their own laws.
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Old 11-04-05, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Here in San Diego two interesting reports were in the morning paper, both discussing slowing down motorists. One report is dealing with a couple of new traffic circles and future traffic circles to slow traffic down to 25MPH along a busy corridor. The report talks of having to "retrain" motorists and how some are complaining about the traffic circles. Apparently it is too inconvienent to drive 25. Some see it as a good idea, but there are naysayers.



The other report comes out of the Coronado area and again discusses lowering speeds on the island and how some folks just don't seem to "get it." The speed limit was lowered to 25MPH on the entire flat island. I loved this one comment from one woman that obviously doesn't "get it:"

I guess in her mind "relaxed" means racing about like Indy drivers... sigh.

Incidently the island is very flat and a beautiful place to bike. 25MPH seems quite reasonable to me.
I 'retrain' motorists by DRIVING my car the speed limit, and NEVER exceeding 35 mph in a residential area. I love to wtach
people pile up, honk, and get pissed.....and that includes MANY drivers who choose to ride bicycles at other times but somehow manage to complain about motorists.

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Old 11-04-05, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff
I 'retrain' motorists by DRIVING my car the speed limit, and NEVER exceeding 35 mph in a residential area. I love to wtach
people pile up, honk, and get pissed.....and that includes MANY drivers who choose to ride bicycles at other times but somehow manage to complain about motorists.

roughstuff
Teach by example. Me too. I love 'puttering' along at the speed limit, maybe just a tad under and have people B L A S T by me ... yet I usually catch them at the next light. Not always, but often enough, and if they get stuck behind you going the speed limit ... whoa! There goes their blood pressure!!

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Old 11-04-05, 01:00 PM
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I also insist that my friends drive the speed limit in residential areas. It's a matter of setting the expectations of motorists so that they don't set out on a trip full well expecting to blast along at 50 mph in the city. If they expect to be able to do 30, and I'm out there "slowing them down" to 20, that's not so bad.
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Old 11-04-05, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Orikal
I've always received mixed emotions when discussing roundabouts. I lived in Boston for about 5 years, and roundabouts seemed to be the rule rather than the exception. I've read statistics that they are safer than traffic lights, and they help keep traffic moving rather than the typical start/stop/start routine.

However, the entire time I lived there I probably saw the aftermath of or physically witnessed 100+ accidents at them. That may being saying a lot about Boston drivers , but it appeared as though people actually went faster through them than they would on a typical road with traffic lights.

In my lay-opinion I don't think they do anything for slowing down traffic, and they definitely didn't make the roads any safer in my experience.
Older New England traffic circles are large and accommodate high speeds. The "mini roundabouts" in vogue now for reducing speeds are so small as to make it nearly impossible to drive over 25 mph around them. The smallest ones demand about 15 mph.

One of these was recently installed at a college campus near where I live; I find it preferable to traffic light regardless of whether I'm on the bike or in the car. But mini-roundabouts only work well for cyclists if the traffic is light enough that the intersecting roads only need one lane in each direction. Multi-lane roundabouts are much less pleasant for cyclists, and must be larger, generating higher speeds.

-Steve Goodridge
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Old 11-04-05, 01:31 PM
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Retraining motorists... to slow down

--- Thank you for posting an excellent topic under the safety forum. As of today, I have been a member of the Bike Forums for exactly one year. During this year the Advocacy & Safety postings have had more of an effect on me as a motorist than as a bicyclist. I have become aware that I have taken for granted some kind of right to drive fast. This awareness has made me slow down. After years of driving with a heavy foot, I have finally seen the light.

Furthermore, it occurs to me that all residential streets could be safely shared by bikes and autos if the enforced speed limit were lowered to 20 mph. Lower speed limits overall would also reduce auto accidents and conserve fuel.

I like single-lane roundabouts. Multilane traffic circles are the work of Satan.
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Old 11-04-05, 02:17 PM
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I always try to drive under the speed limit. I do it because I respect the laws and people in neighborhoods other than my own. Unfortunately not many people see it that way.
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Old 11-04-05, 02:36 PM
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Circles, schmircles.

Behold the Magic Roundabout.
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Old 11-04-05, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by IBreakCellPhone
Circles, schmircles.

Behold the Magic Roundabout.
Where's the bike lane?
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Old 11-04-05, 03:32 PM
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They say there's one around the outside now.

It's in Swindon, England.
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Old 11-04-05, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sggoodri
Older New England traffic circles are large and accommodate high speeds. The "mini roundabouts" in vogue now for reducing speeds are so small as to make it nearly impossible to drive over 25 mph around them. The smallest ones demand about 15 mph.
Originally Posted by genec
Is it possible that they have been in place in Boston for so long that folks simply have no idea how bad it might be without them?
Good point, sggoodri. Many of the ones in New England I experienced were 4-5 times the one pictured, and the curve was very broad, so they're not adept at slowing anyone down.
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Old 11-05-05, 07:12 AM
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There are only 2 traffic circles where I live. I call them "American Puzzles" because often motorists in the United States have no idea how to proceed through them. The blind people have complained bitterly whenever there is talk of adding a tc because they are more difficult for the blind peds to negotiate.
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Old 11-05-05, 08:36 AM
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The local government here is in the midst of adding 37 roundabouts in the area. Many citizens complained long & loud about these until they actually drove them. After about two weeks, which appears to be how long it took drivers to learn how to deal a rotary, traffic moved better during peak usage times. And many of the critics recanted. Also, off-peak traffic moved a bit slower.

I think one of the better endorsements of traffic circles as a tool for calming traffic is that firefighters hate them, claming it slows their response time. A stop sign can be run, a traffic light ignored, but simple physics forces drivers to slow for a traffic circle.
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Old 11-05-05, 08:48 AM
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When I was in France years ago, the traffic entering a roundabout had the right-of-way over traffic already in the circle. This made for some fast and scary (to foreigners) experiences.

I really don't care for roundabouts or traffic dircles. I think the multilane ones are difficult to navigate on a bike. I also am very skeptical of attempts to slow down the cagers. Realistically, I don't think it's going to happen, no matter what we do. As cyclists, we have to either adapt to fast traffic or find other places to ride.
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Old 11-05-05, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Roody
When I was in France years ago, the traffic entering a roundabout had the right-of-way over traffic already in the circle. This made for some fast and scary (to foreigners) experiences.

I really don't care for roundabouts or traffic dircles. I think the multilane ones are difficult to navigate on a bike. I also am very skeptical of attempts to slow down the cagers. Realistically, I don't think it's going to happen, no matter what we do. As cyclists, we have to either adapt to fast traffic or find other places to ride.
Traffic in the circle has right of way... and it is that way in France too. I was just there in August. It may have seemed the other way as drivers there are pretty used to the circles. You cannot be timid using them there.

The mulitlaned ones are more difficult. I was quite empressed by the traffic in Paris and one multilaned circle around the Arc'd Treomphe where during rush hour I observed (from a taxi) a cyclist making his way through the about 4 deep circle.

Here in San Diego the traffic circles seem to be working quite well on the stretch in the story... The road has been marked 25MPH for as long as I can remember and was years ago quite pleasent to ride, being along a residential tree lined area. The traffic had creaped up to 35MPH+ in the area, but the circles slow this down quite nicely... they also reduced the bunching where stop signs exist.
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Old 11-05-05, 09:36 AM
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They don't decrease accidents. But they do decrease the severity since the accidents won't be head-on or perpendicular. They'll all be same-direction fender-benders. I agree they're a little difficult for pedestrians and cyclists and motorists can be pretty darn aggressive inside them as they attempt to claim the entire roundabout as their own, which totally misses the point.
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Old 11-05-05, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by kuan
Where's the bike lane?
When I first read about the "Magic Traffic Circle [From Hell]," I read that "pelican crossings" were being contemplated for bicyclists and pedestrians. This is precisely the sort of vehicular segeregation many of us detest and fear.

I concur with the general thread, i.e., small-radius low-speed single-lane traffic circles are OK for bicyclists and pedestrians, but the multilane monstrosities can be deadly. We have a small one going in Encinitas soon (corner of Santa Fe Drive and, I believe, Devonshire); I'll be interested to see how it works out.
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Old 11-05-05, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Da Tinker
The local government here is in the midst of adding 37 roundabouts in the area. Many citizens complained long & loud about these until they actually drove them. After about two weeks, which appears to be how long it took drivers to learn how to deal a rotary, traffic moved better during peak usage times. And many of the critics recanted. Also, off-peak traffic moved a bit slower.

I think one of the better endorsements of traffic circles as a tool for calming traffic is that firefighters hate them, claming it slows their response time. A stop sign can be run, a traffic light ignored, but simple physics forces drivers to slow for a traffic circle.
Fire lanes through the circle. Maybe acuated spike strips so when a fire truck or other em vehical comes near it the spikes drop. Or gates like at a train crossing (breakaway of course incase the firetruck fails to trigger the gates to rais or simply gets to the spot to soon. Give your city planers a yell and pass the idea along. Another intresting idea about the gate idea is they could go up for the em vehicals and down for the rest.
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Old 11-05-05, 04:40 PM
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I just remembered we do have one trafic circle here in my area though it doesnt get rid of the need for stop signs as its not large enough to get rid of face to face trafic across the intersection.

Id love to see them at all intersections here personaly at least for normal res roads. no more stop lights or signs yeh i could live with that. Dont know about on major intersections with 2 or more lanes in one direction.
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Old 11-05-05, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Traffic in the circle has right of way... and it is that way in France too. I was just there in August. It may have seemed the other way as drivers there are pretty used to the circles. You cannot be timid using them there.
.
Actually, they changed the law several years ago to conform the rest of the EU--after much controversy and debate.
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Old 11-05-05, 08:37 PM
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since traffic circles reduce stopping and starting and idling at stop signs, they also reduce pollution and improve fuel efficiency.
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Old 11-05-05, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lws
since traffic circles reduce stopping and starting and idling at stop signs, they also reduce pollution and improve fuel efficiency.
Thats true. All things being equal in that people stop at stop signs trafic circles should be as fast or faster al the time. When they say its slower going during less busy times that tells me one thing drivers are not doing as they should and coming to a stop during slow times.

For us cyclists they would always be faster. I mean realy who hear cant take a turn like that at their avarage riding speed or faster if they push them self?

I can take the turns up in silver creeks parking lots at upwards of 20 mph with ease and the turn radious is alot tighter than the trafic circles shown in the examples. I beleive 40 to 60 foot radious was qouted? The radius in the parking lots is maybe 20 to 25 feet 180 degree turn total. I can take the tightest line possible with out hitting my pedals on the curb with ease.

I think most drivers would be all for them here. Some times in some places you can get stuck just trying to cross a intersection for a solid 3 minutes+. Like down town barberton tusc and 2nd street (stop light controled 2 way 4 lane) it can take you 10 12 minutes to make a left hand turn waiting at the stop light.
Put a trafic circle there and i bet you could turn qoute unqoute left in a couple minutes any time of the day max. Any driver who wouldnt want such a thing is out of their freaking mind. Alittle common sence is all it takes.
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