supcom

I think this idea is most like a funeral procession - in advance - because somebody's gonna get killed.

AndrewP

I think up to 15 riders should act like a single vehicle. This enables them to keep together through intersections, but gives faster traffic a chance to get past.

TrevorInSoCal

This is pretty close to my reasoning when the "obey the law no matter what" crowd gets all huffy about a group of cyclists all rolling through an intersection.

We have a lot of 4-way stops in my town. Group rides almost always ride through them as a group. When someone complains to me about "you cyclists..." and points out that behavior I always ask them. "Ok, picture yourself at a busy 4-way stop. A cyclist has the perfectly reasonable and *legal* right to take the lane at an intersection to make his/her intentions clear , and/or make room for right-turning traffic. Would you prefer all 50 cyclists each stop individually with you waiting in line behind them (or waiting in line in another direction), or would you prefer they clear the intersection ASAP so that you can go along your way?"

Almost always the answer is the latter.

-Trevor

Brad M

This is classic. JRA you've gotta keep centrish, vehicular, steely-eyed, wary of that pervasive inadvertent drift but once you snap on that spandex the rules change... because look out, we're training!!

genec

Frankly I have never had problems with it either in group rides... as long as the group is tightly bunched. If that tight bunch sees a stoplight ahead, then as a group they stop, if the light is green, then as a group they proceed. If it turning red, then any part of the tightly packed group goes through as though it is simply one long vehicle... but at the first break in the group, they have to stop.

Even if the group is 200 people, generally the tight bunches are no more then 15 or 20 or so riders. So it is only the smaller sub groups that act as a single large vehicle.

pakole

The problem with the funeal procession or the parade anology is that both require prior approval by some governemnt organization. Now, if a bicycle club leader got such a permit, then I would have no problem compare the group to a parade or such, but I find it doubtful a leader would be able to get one.
Yet another matter, I would like to bring up is that when I am running in formation with my platoon for the Marines. We have two runner run into the street and stop the cars, and allow the group to run on through. I really doubt that this is legal, but its accepted by all motorist without any problems. Yet, as a formation if anyone drops out the formation sweeps around to pick him or her up and we run at his or her pace. Thus, if a group of cyclists which to run their business like this I am willing to support it, but I find most group cyclists are very impatient and need to keep going at their training pace.
Thus, outside of the first two example, I must say cyclists are a N number of vehicles.

I-Like-To-Bike

You have pointed out the difference between cyclists and REAL CYCLISTS, and the bogus rules that apply to the former and the laws that do not apply to the later.

DCCommuter

I say if you ride in a platoon, then you're not allowed to hand out "same roads, same rules" business cards.

JRA

Let me get this straight. Are you implying that riding in a "swarm" is "VC", even if illegal?

Are there any recognized VC theorists/proponents/gurus who have said or implied such a thing?

Or are you just playing devil's advocate?

Helmet Head

JRA, no, I'm not implying that "riding in a 'swarm'" is "VC", even if illegal.

I am suggesting that it might be. In particular, if such a swarm acts and is treated like a driven vehicle, then why not? I'm just asking... Seems like a reasonable question, no? It definitely has problems, though, not the least of which is: who exactly is the driver of this "vehicle"?

I've posted a similar question on a VC advocacy list.

I'll let you know what the responses are.

TrevorInSoCal

Exactly. In fact it's often used as a "tactic" of sorts on a local Sat. morning training ride. If a small group is off the front and a chase group is trying to reel them in but the front group makes the green and the chase group doesn't, well, too bad you're not catching on now .

On oft-heard refrain on the Saturday morning ride is "I/we was/were closing the gap, but got caught at the light..."

As long as the gapped riders aren't blowing through the light I don't see what the problem is, if the tail-end of the front group ekes through on red when it was still green or yellow for the first rider.

I think this whole debate underscores a rift between the spandex/racer set, and the utility/transportation cyclist set, while ignoring the fact that there are many of us who wear both hats (helmets?).

-Trevor

Helmet Head

What you describe is much more true in a ride with cyclists at significantly different levels of skills and fitness and where the pace is generally closer to 15 mph than 20. Once the group gets to 20 mph and above, with speeds often closer to 30 mph (flats and gradual uphill), the advantage of the draft becomes much more significant, and the group tends to stay together more. Sure, a few individuals who simply can't take the pace even in the draft drop off one at a time, but I've been in groups approaching 100 people riding very hard and staying together very tightly.

In fact, that's what's so fun about fast rides. Once you have sufficient fitness to hang with a group like that, you can hang virtually forever, as long as you stay out of the wind.

Think flat stage in the Tour...

What breaks up large groups like that are the climbs.

CommuterRun

One bicycle is one vehicle. 100 bicycles are 100 vehicles.

This is not vehicular cycling.
The actions of mob cycling like this are typically not legal.
This is just an excuse to do a critical mass ride whenever somebody wants. Even if it's not the last Friday of the month, drivers will veiw it as just another pita, mob CM ride.
Mob riding is the cycling anti-advocate.

genec

Interesting... I wonder if platoon and peloton have the same latin root

Helmet Head

CommuterRun - group rides have been conducted under these informal rules - the group acts as a single vehicle - for years.

Critical Mass is completely different. In CM the speeds are much lower and the gaps between cyclists much bigger. There is a big difference between a chaotic mass of cyclists each operating indepedently and unpredictably, and a tight and coordinated group of cyclists operating in unison like a flock of geese or swarm of bees.

Again, I'm not ready to say that such a group should act and be treated as a vehicle, but I do feel the idea has merit. Another problem with it, in terms of legal recognition, is how exactly do you differentiate between a coordinated group and a chaotic CM-like group?

But the question remains. If a group of cyclists can and does maintain coordinated unison, why shouldn't it act and be treated as a vehicle?

Helmet Head

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloton

Brad M

Are fast drivers in fancy cars judged by a different set of rules than the moms in minivans?

Another thing to consider is the mixed message this gives to the motorists who don't know how this group of riders is going to act. Ignorance aside, they've all been trained to recognise a bicyclist as a vehicle on the road. It only makes advocacy that much harder when motorists see the rules broken en mass by a large number of cyclists.

LCI_Brian

I do both club rides and cycle for transporation.

I don't see a group of cyclists as one vehicle. Rather, I view it as a collection of individual vehicles, but choosing to ride close together. Things such as merges and turns may end up being done in unison, but only because the collection of individual vehicles work quite well together.

The only thing I could see as making this illegal is any provision against "following too closely". Arguably, this was meant protect the roadway user in front from someone tailgating behind. But for one cyclist drafting another, the rear cyclist is assuming almost all of the risk if wheels touch. Therefore, I think any "following too closely" provisions should not have to apply to cyclists, although the laws in your state may say otherwise.

Legally considering the group as one vehicle, with the front riders as the "drivers" would have its problems. What if one of the riders in the front got a front wheel flat, and had to slow down to prevent from crashing, but that caused a ripple effect in the pack and some of the riders in back went down? Or what if the "drivers" in front do something illegal, and the others follow?

If a group approaches a traffic light, and it turns yellow as the first riders are about to enter the intersection, clearly the riders in the front should go through. But the riders further back can see the light changing and slow down and stop safely before reaching the intersection. So that would probably mean that the first 20 riders or so make it through the light, while the rest wait behind.

Helmet Head

And this is when it gets problematic. In particular, say one rider decides to stop for the light, while the one behind him thinks they're not stopping. Say they're moving at 25 mph and 6 inches apart. Now multiple by 50 where half decide to stop, and half decide to continue, randomly distributed throughout the group. What I generally do is listen for someone yelling "STOP", or I yell it myself. But I've been remprimanded a few times by a few guys in their late 50s who have been doing this since their teens, and their view is that the pack does not break up for a light any more than a tractor trailer with dual trailers would. You really know what they mean when 2 or 3 guys are yelling "STOP" while 2 or 3 more are yelling "ROLLING". I guess they've seen too many crashes at lights caused by ambiguity within the swarm as to whether or not to stop, and have not seen a problem with the swarm remaining a swarm and all of it continuing through the intersection in coordinated unison.

I realize one answer is, "well, don't ride in groups". The problem is that group riding is so much fun. I can't tell you how many times I notice my HR is in the 160s, and I had no idea. I never get near that kind of workout when riding solo. The weekend fast training group ride dovetails nicely with the weekday commute workout. I'd hate to give that up.

mechBgon

That's life. If I'm 50th in a line of 50 people waiting to go through a stop sign, then I'll just wait my turn like everyone else. Heavy traffic is no excuse to want people to start disregarding traffic law, or else we could begin making a habit of driving in the carpool/transit lane and on the shoulder when traffic comes to a crawl on the freeway too. Eh?

I personally think it comes down to a lot of riders just wanting to do what's convenient, and looking for ways to rationalize it (or not even bothering to rationalize it). As for me, I stop completely at stop signs, wait at red lights, and have proven to be such a hazard to groups that I don't do group rides on the road anymore, unless it's maybe a century-type ride where I'm doing my own thing most of the time.

Helmet Head

Is this conjecture, or are you speaking from experience? How many times have you ridden in a fast training group ride with 25 or more riders capable of riding effectively together in unison?

mechBgon

From experience; and Quite a bit. At one point I had one TT-specific bike, one road-racer, one touring, one mountain, the old Schwinn Typhoon Deluxe cruiser for persecuting extra-snobby roadies with, and one sport-touring bike. Those were my college days

To be blunt, most people I've ridden with are terrible at getting a good launch from a stop, and it's something they should work on.

CommuterRun

You and I know this.


In the eyes of motorists who don't bicycle, you can't. The answer to this question is in your above quote, but motorists don't differentiate between the two.


For the same reason 30 hotrod aficionados can't, legally, run together as a single vehicle. Because they're not. One car is one vehicle, and one bicycle is one vehicle.

Cyclaholic

The notion of a group of cyclists being considered as one large vehichle like an articulated truck strikes me as ludicrous. The articulated vehichle is operate by one person with one set of controls and one decision point, the different units are physically attached to each other so being articulated is immaterial to this example. The only valid comparison between a truck and a bicycle is if you're comparing the truck to a tandem (rigid truck, one driver up front in control) or to a bike with a trailer (articulated vehichle but again one driver up front in control).

What if there is an accident further back in the bunch will the lead cyclist assume full responsibility? ofcourse not, nor should s/he because the lead rider is only in control of their bike, not everyone elses'. In an articulated vehichle the driver is responsible for every inch of the vehichle not just the cabin.

There are laws (here, at least) specifically covering funeral processions. They have an exemption permitting them to travel in convoy within certain restrictions, and it's illegal to for a driver to break in to the convoy. As an example it also doesn't apply to cyclists in a bunch as they have no such exemption under our road laws. Except ofcourse for organised events such as charity rides.

I disagree with the assertion that every cyclist out for themselves would be utter chaos. Just by following the basic rules of the road (which you have vehemently promoted in the past) will ensure normal traffic flow, that's what they're there for. When it comes to pacelining, drafting, or 'group training rides' then you're no longer talking about adherence to the road rules. I equate that behaviour with cagers tailgating or street racing.

Bruce Rosar

FYI from the N.C. rules of the road: