genec

I thought it became a bit boring around here...

chipcom 

I leave for a couple of hours for a nice ride home on an unusually nice winter day and find that I actually started a productive discussion. Way to go folks.

I-Like-To-Bike

You ain't kidding. 58º on Jan 12; wore shorts on the ride home today.

Brian

Sorry guys, I'm at work. If I read the whole thread, I may lapse into a coma. Should I read it? Has the point been made that not every A&S thread should come down to a VC debate?

Roody

I guess I'm vc then. I do think it's best to follow the rules almost all the time, and I do agree with Serge on most of what he says about lane positioning. It just seems that in most places that's ALLthat is meant by vehicular cycling, but here a few people ON BOTH SIDES have construed the term to mean a lot more than that.

To my way of thinking, most threads here are quite interesting for about the first 30 or 40 posts. Then they too often deteriorate into mind boggling petty details that I am far too stupid to follow, let alone understand. I bail out of most threads when they get to that point.

BTW, I don't think it's fair to lay the blame on either side of the argument, or on any one or two individuals. There's actually plenty of blame to go around! But my solution is not to shut people up or stifle arguments or lock threads or move them to P & R. My solution is just to quit reading the thread when it gets to that point. Sometimes I take a total vacation from this forum for a few hours up to a couple weeks.

randya

You forgot the category: "No, absolutely not!"

People go to P&R to get away from all the bicycle BS, and especially the endless VC discussions here.

I might support a new forum category on 'bicycle politics' where all the VC, CM, and other acronyms could go, but I don't know exactly how to effectively separate 'advocacy' from 'bicycle politics.'

We as a community should be trying to reach some kind of consensus on what we collectively want - we could advocate more effectively then - and it will probably be a little bit of everything, based on the overwhelming majority who voted for 'hybrid riding style' in the Ultimate Advocacy Poll. However, IMO, endless long-winded, rhetorical, etc. diatribes and debates like we've been having here lately are unlikely to actually ever get us to an endpoint.

Brian

I think I mentioned before something about not letting A&S thread go over 2 pages, or something like that.

sbhikes

I think don't move it. Too bad these forum softwares don't let you set how many times someone can post in a day. From the looks of things, some of us are on the BF payroll or something!

I did think things were saner over the holidays, but they were a lot quieter too. I just wish there was a way to bring up more topics and have more camraderie and not see every topic degenerate into center lane positioning blah blah blah bike lanes are death traps blah blah blah.

I like the commuter forum, but it often becomes a bore because all the topics are like "what light should I get?" "what bike should I get?" "do you ride in the rain or snow?"

Brian

No payroll, but you can tell how much someone posts:

sbhikes's Forum Info
Joined 10-04-04
Last Post Facilities for encouraging novice/beginning cyclists
01-13-06 05:25 PM
Total Posts 1,293 (2.77 posts per day)

budster

No.

Banishing "VC debates" to P&R would accomplish nothing except ensuring that fewer people were aware of the issues, especially new members of the forums. No one is forced to participate, or read, any thread they don't want to participate in or read now.

Unless someone has some hard facts, the questions are open: what is the best/safest way to ride a bicycle? Should we press for more bike lanes? More generally, what should be the focus of bicycle advocacy? These questions involve politics, but they are not primarily political questions. They are primarily questions of bicycling advocacy and safety.

If the answers were obvious, no one would read or participate in threads discussing these issues. These discussions are lively and occasionally produce new ideas. I do find tiresome the constant rehashing of the same debates, with the same posters making the same arguments/rebuttals, the same unwillingness to compromise -- but that's the nature of human interaction.

LittleBigMan

Let's establish a VC forum and call it, "The Leper Colony."

(The smiley means I'm joking.)

Guest

Personally, I don't think this is going to happen.

Politics is it's own three headed monster. Here's a typical Politics and Religion thread: "Democrats suck!"

Here's a typical A & S thread "How can we influence the local government to give cyclists access to X, Y, and Z?".

Two different issues.

We reserve the Politics and Religion for the political issues that influence world news and events. Sorry, but bike advocacy just doesn't fit that bill. The things you talk about that happen to be politically related that involve cycling is an advocacy issue. That's what drives this forum, so this is most likely where it's going to remain.

The best thing you can do if you don't like to discuss politics in a topic is to steer clear of that thread.

Koffee

Mod

msheron

I think any topic one starts as a thread that one has common sense knows will elicit a debate or civil war of opinions should be posted in a "Bilitical" forum (Bicycle POlitics)! The A&S forum should be links to safety classes and legislative bills or proposals for positive or negative impact toward cyclist whether it be local or federal governmental proposals.

All debate or heated argument elicited material has a place to air out between us. Anyone posting incorrectly should be given warning then repeated stupidity should be handled by losening their QR and putting a super slick material on their brake pads since Darwin's theory has yet to take them out of society!

Just my 2 cents!

sbhikes

Yes I know, that is why I said "some of us are on the BF payroll or something!"

(P.S. HH = 2,694 (9.29 posts per day) and that doesn't count when he went by his real name)

-=(8)=-

I say dont move it because I would hate to see the highly
intelligent, thought provoking and always insightful P & R
discussion and friendly social intercourses watered down by
boring, stupid bicycle stuff.

Brian

I think if we keep the politics of VC out of the A&S threads, that would make a big difference. It's the opposite of the Holocuast. Mention VC, and the thread takes a bad turn that never ends.

Daily Commute

What exactly does "keeping the politics of VC out of the A&S threads" mean? And would you apply the same principle to anti-VC or non-VC ideas--like advocacy for bike/ped coordinator positions or praise for the striping of bike lanes on 25 mph roads or door zones?

It takes two sides to keep an argument going. The VC'ers are willing to defend their positions. Some of the anti-VC'ers seem to want to assert their positions (for example, praise for a bike lane in a 25 mph downtown area) and then claim that no one should be allowed to say that the facility was a bad idea.