Geographic Differences in Bicycle/Vehicular Safety?
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Originally Posted by jnbacon
Hmm. I saw quite a number of Dodge pickups and 70's-era Chevy sports cars in the Netherlands just recently. They sure stand out, which is, I'm guessing, the point.
Hey, I once saw approximately 100 Ferraris parked in front the Strasbourg Cathedral, as part of an international Ferrari fanciers get -together but didn't draw too many conclusions about French auto buying preferences from this gorgeous but unworldly sight.
I've got to go searching through my slide collection to find some slides I took of that fantastic display of horsepower wrapped in steel in the shadow of the magnificent 15th century church.
Until then, these cars were once driving up and down the highways of Europe but are hardly representative of what is bought and sold today. They sure are standouts though.
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It's all relative. Are there differences? Sure. But are they significant? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how you measure "significant".
I have driven all over the U.S. and in Europe. I've also cycled in many places in California, and in Europe. I realize many people have a broader experience, but I think my experience is broad enough to have encountered significant difference, if such existed in any kind of substantial presence.
But I find that driving and cycling in traffic works more or less the same, and drivers react more or less the same, no matter where I go. Yes, there are differences, but none that have any significant impact on how I drive or ride, or how drivers react to me.
Some differences might be worth mentioning - e.g., San Franciscans tend to stretch the yellow phase of a light more than Bostonians - but hardly worth hand wringing and the such. You certainly don't need to research the particular quirks of a region before you drive or cycle there to be properly prepared or something.
I have driven all over the U.S. and in Europe. I've also cycled in many places in California, and in Europe. I realize many people have a broader experience, but I think my experience is broad enough to have encountered significant difference, if such existed in any kind of substantial presence.
But I find that driving and cycling in traffic works more or less the same, and drivers react more or less the same, no matter where I go. Yes, there are differences, but none that have any significant impact on how I drive or ride, or how drivers react to me.
Some differences might be worth mentioning - e.g., San Franciscans tend to stretch the yellow phase of a light more than Bostonians - but hardly worth hand wringing and the such. You certainly don't need to research the particular quirks of a region before you drive or cycle there to be properly prepared or something.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 01-20-06 at 01:46 PM.
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Originally Posted by DnvrFox
A NON-VC Thread, please!
Do you feel there are geographic/situational differences in bicycle-vehicle interactions and safety issues and driver's attitudes?
Do you feel there are geographic/situational differences in bicycle-vehicle interactions and safety issues and driver's attitudes?
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Originally Posted by patc
Yes, a huge difference. I simply can't relate to the hostile environment most people describe here. Maybe its due to being in a city with one of the highest bike commuting rates in North America; maybe its due to being in Canada (and most posts being from the US), or maybe its due to being in a city that considers cycling to be a valid and desirable mode of transportation. Whatever the cause, I might as well be on a different planet when it comes to discussing most personal cycling experiences.
In other words, I doubt you would find it anywhere near as hostile down here as is described by many people on this forum.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
What kind of license plates?
Hey, I once saw approximately 100 Ferraris parked in front the Strasbourg Cathedral, as part of an international Ferrari fanciers get -together but didn't draw too many conclusions about French auto buying preferences from this gorgeous but unworldly sight.
Hey, I once saw approximately 100 Ferraris parked in front the Strasbourg Cathedral, as part of an international Ferrari fanciers get -together but didn't draw too many conclusions about French auto buying preferences from this gorgeous but unworldly sight.
I was responding to the categorical statement, "No European drives an American made car," which is wrong. There is a noteworthy number of large, gas-guzzling American-made cars in the Netherlands (as well as a larger number of European-styled Ford vans), so some Europeans do buy American cars. I think they buy pick-ups and such to make a statement, though I don't know exactly what statement they are making. I haven't drawn any other conclusions than that.
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Originally Posted by jnbacon
Dutch or Euro plates, whatever they have now.
I was responding to the categorical statement, "No European drives an American made car," which is wrong. There is a noteworthy number of large, gas-guzzling American-made cars in the Netherlands (as well as a larger number of European-styled Ford vans), so some Europeans do buy American cars. I think they buy pick-ups and such to make a statement, though I don't know exactly what statement they are making. I haven't drawn any other conclusions than that.
I was responding to the categorical statement, "No European drives an American made car," which is wrong. There is a noteworthy number of large, gas-guzzling American-made cars in the Netherlands (as well as a larger number of European-styled Ford vans), so some Europeans do buy American cars. I think they buy pick-ups and such to make a statement, though I don't know exactly what statement they are making. I haven't drawn any other conclusions than that.
I never saw an American made pickup in the Nrtherland ten years of visiting the country at least twice a year. But obviously there must be some; you saw them.
What I did see looked like the attached pictures, though the 2CV was in Linden (or some other town along the BodenSee (Lake Constance) in Germany. Given the parking conditions in most Dutch cities, the Smart is smart, Vehicles the size of American Made Pickups would be called Stoopid.
Note: I don't consider European Made Fords manufactured without an iota of American made content an American made car.
Shoot, its hard enough to sell American made cars in the US. American cars have nothing to offer a European driver that can't be found improved upon by a Japanese or Western European made car in every size and model range, except for grotesquely oversized, gas swilling SUVs/pickups.
Don't even think about finding parts or repair manuals in the appropriate language.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 01-20-06 at 03:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by DnvrFox
Do you feel there are geographic/situational differences in bicycle-vehicle interactions and safety issues and driver's attitudes?
Another major influence is terrain and urban plan. If a place is designed to move lots of cars quickly, without thought given to other modes of transport, the bicycle-vehicle interaction will be uncomfortable. And not just because of the speed differential, but also because people acquire the expectation that their speed and uninterrupted travel is the most important thing. In places where landforms and design have resulted in a more variable street plan, I suspect that drivers and bikers are likely to be more aware of one another, and possibly safer as a result.
Now, do Boston and NYC have less biker deaths and injuries per capita of the bike population than Phoenix and Atlanta? I don't know, and I don't know if those cities are the best representations of the cities I describe, so these are just my suspicions.
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Originally Posted by Dogbait
Back in the eighties, I did a lot of cycling in the city (Portland, OR) including a daily commute of 14 miles. For the most part, folks were friendly enough but I felt that my safety suffered from the traffic density and, to a lesser extent, aggressive drivers...
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How about the difference in cultures... While touring in Baja, I found that the Locals were quite good to cyclists... pulling over and giving a cyclist, on an isolated hiway, at least a 1/4 of the entire road (that's 1/2 the lane). They had no problem crossing the double yellow in the center of the road to give a cyclist plenty of room.
On the other hand, Americans would not cross that double yellow... even with plenty of clearance and visiblity. It was very annoying when the Americans passed as it was often uncomfortably close on the narrow roads down there.
It was easy to tell who was who... they had different license plates.
This whole issue was part of the occasional evening discussion amongst us cyclo-tourists. BTW we did not ride in large groups but often just in pairs.
On the other hand, Americans would not cross that double yellow... even with plenty of clearance and visiblity. It was very annoying when the Americans passed as it was often uncomfortably close on the narrow roads down there.
It was easy to tell who was who... they had different license plates.
This whole issue was part of the occasional evening discussion amongst us cyclo-tourists. BTW we did not ride in large groups but often just in pairs.
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Originally Posted by jnbacon
Dutch or Euro plates, whatever they have now.
I was responding to the categorical statement, "No European drives an American made car," which is wrong. There is a noteworthy number of large, gas-guzzling American-made cars in the Netherlands (as well as a larger number of European-styled Ford vans), so some Europeans do buy American cars. I think they buy pick-ups and such to make a statement, though I don't know exactly what statement they are making. I haven't drawn any other conclusions than that.
I was responding to the categorical statement, "No European drives an American made car," which is wrong. There is a noteworthy number of large, gas-guzzling American-made cars in the Netherlands (as well as a larger number of European-styled Ford vans), so some Europeans do buy American cars. I think they buy pick-ups and such to make a statement, though I don't know exactly what statement they are making. I haven't drawn any other conclusions than that.
I actually saw a Hummer in the south of France just last August... It was not some strange promotion or anything, it was just parked in a public lot... but I felt the driver was really going to have a hard time in places with narrow parking and narrow roads.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Hmm, I never had much problem while in Okinawa, or Japan either. I loved riding over there.
One thing I noticed about the dogs over there is that they almost never chase. I remember getting chased one time, at night, on my regular route and that wasn't more than a few yards. Even the brown Oki-mutt strays didn't even bark at a cyclist.
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun
I liked it too, and had almost no problems with the Okinawans or Japanese on either Okinawa or mainland Japan and had a beautiful commute on Oki around the edge of Kin Bay.
One thing I noticed about the dogs over there is that they almost never chase. I remember getting chased one time, at night, on my regular route and that wasn't more than a few yards. Even the brown Oki-mutt strays didn't even bark at a cyclist.
One thing I noticed about the dogs over there is that they almost never chase. I remember getting chased one time, at night, on my regular route and that wasn't more than a few yards. Even the brown Oki-mutt strays didn't even bark at a cyclist.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#39
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Originally Posted by patc
Yes, a huge difference. I simply can't relate to the hostile environment most people describe here. Maybe its due to being in a city with one of the highest bike commuting rates in North America; maybe its due to being in Canada (and most posts being from the US), or maybe its due to being in a city that considers cycling to be a valid and desirable mode of transportation. Whatever the cause, I might as well be on a different planet when it comes to discussing most personal cycling experiences.
Along with HH, I speculate that one difference is how you ride, not where you ride. I ride in a manner that can't be mentioned here, and I don't get much grief form cagers. When I ride with my stepson Jerry, who is an erratic and squirrely rider, we get lots of buzzes, honks and close calls.
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When riding thru Crack Alley, it helps to show a little solidarity to the disenfranchised!!!
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They had no problem crossing the double yellow in the center of the road to give a cyclist plenty of room.
And the shoulder? Just an extra lane.....
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Completely different from my experience with American plated cars in Heidelberg which was full of U.S. Army personnel, military and civilian, as well as their dependents. They adapted to the city bicycling-motorist environment (of numerous bicyclists day or night on every street) quickly or they would have been in serious trouble with the Polizei, if not the American authorities for the conflict that rude or stupid driving would cause.
The only significant difference was the size of the American cars and pickups brought over from the US; no Germans (or any other Europeans) drive an American made car.
The only significant difference was the size of the American cars and pickups brought over from the US; no Germans (or any other Europeans) drive an American made car.
My experiences in Nuremburg were the same. You learn to adapt to the local riding/driving culture. Now if we could only change the local driving culture here...
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Originally Posted by jnbacon
I think the cultural differences (i.e. norms, attitudes, experiences, history) of an area make a difference, as DnvrFox notes.
Another major influence is terrain and urban plan. If a place is designed to move lots of cars quickly, without thought given to other modes of transport, the bicycle-vehicle interaction will be uncomfortable. And not just because of the speed differential, but also because people acquire the expectation that their speed and uninterrupted travel is the most important thing. In places where landforms and design have resulted in a more variable street plan, I suspect that drivers and bikers are likely to be more aware of one another, and possibly safer as a result.
Another major influence is terrain and urban plan. If a place is designed to move lots of cars quickly, without thought given to other modes of transport, the bicycle-vehicle interaction will be uncomfortable. And not just because of the speed differential, but also because people acquire the expectation that their speed and uninterrupted travel is the most important thing. In places where landforms and design have resulted in a more variable street plan, I suspect that drivers and bikers are likely to be more aware of one another, and possibly safer as a result.
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Originally Posted by genec
On the other hand, Americans would not cross that double yellow... even with plenty of clearance and visiblity.
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#45
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I think responsibility on behalf of car drivers is the bottom line here.I will say straight off that in my expeirience, the suburbs around me are the safest at anytime day or night for riding.The people you find driving around suburbs are usually residents or have ties to that particular suburban setting.Homeowners with a bit of responsibility and children perhaps who are usually alert and are familiar with local roads.Then again,those familiar with local,suburban roads are usually driving above the speed limit and feeling comfortable, may be not prepared to see a bicyclist in their path.Look at it in sheer numbers.Cities usually have more cars,right?Eastern,midwest,southern,western.Does it matter?I feel alot more comfortable in a suburban setting.The streets are usually wider,the speed limits lower,less vehicular traffic.I can pedal 15 miles and be in a mid-sized city.I really don't like doing this because of the sheer volume of traffic.Vehicles are definetley moving faster here!The intersections are wider and more congested and the road surface is worse in the city.It takes a sharper skill to survive on those roads.I will say one thing that my pal the traffic cop supervisor told me."Make sure you're visible."I went and got one of those reflective vests at my local box store.I really don't like wearing this thing but we as bicyclists have to take some responsibility and do what we have to do to be seen.I agree that most car drivers don't realize that they are commanding potentially murderous weapons so this makes being seen and driving our bikes in responsible ways even more important.Ride safe.
#46
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I think a lot of it is what you (the cyclist) is used to. I feel some stress when riding on those wide suburban streets that others like. The traffic is faster and people just seem to think they're entitled to the whole road, especially if there's a bike lane stripe. In the city, I take the narrow lane and motorists seem to find their way around me just fine, with little honking or yelling. The traffic is slower, so often my speed is on a par with the cars. Like I said, it's mostly what you're used to.
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