what age teach "take the lane"?
03-29-06, 02:58 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
03-29-06, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Can you identify which of the two statements above was made by a vehicular cyclist?
The personal attacks and insults on this forum are just ridiculous sometimes. Give the antagonism a rest. People will be a lot more likely to come around to your point of view if you present things in a reasonable manner (as at the start of this thread) rather than resorting to being an *ss in every thread.
03-29-06, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by billh
Is there any concern about having 10-14 year olds take the lane in front of large vehicles on busy streets?
I don't see any problems with that, or even with younger kids taking the lane. At least in principle. I would apply the following principles:
– the child must know how to handle the bike and be predictable;
– the child must be able to assess traffic, including cars behind him or her;
– the child must know how to move left safely;
– the child must be visible.
Kids on 20"-wheel bikes are likely to fail the last criterium, no matter how skilled they are. But one the child is on a 24" or 26"-wheel bike he or she is visible to motorists. As for the other criteria, they come with experience. My 9-year-old daughter (10 in June) has been cycling on her own since she was 6 and has done significant cycling since she was 7. She has also cycled on the trailercycle from ages 4 to 7 and on the tandem since then, for a total of 2000-3000 km per year, including 500 km on her own last year. And I have seen her do a couple of emergency manoeuvres – to avoid a couple of faulty cyclists – that tell a lot of her cycling skills in traffic.
Originally Posted by billh
I have an 8 year old and my thought is that I want him to first learn how to drive a car before operating a bicycle in heavy traffic. In Missouri they can drive with a learners permit at age 15. I think this would give invaluable perspective on riding a bicycle in traffic. I can see ages 10-14 perhaps riding on low-traffic residential streets.
03-30-06, 08:48 AM
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Interesting thread...
I have a 9 yr. old son (Like your daughter, Michel, he'll be 10 in June). We bike in traffic almost every day; To and from school, the grocery, etc. I have and continue to teach him the rules of the road, the laws, and how to handle himself as another vehicle on the streets and I think he will be a better driver in the future because of his experience. I don't think he is quite ready to hit the open road by himself however. He is still learning how to judge the speed of cars versus his speed and he doesn't have his timing down well enough to accurately judge when to go and when to wait. Therefore, he pays attention to what is going on but he waits for me to tell him when to merge left, etc. etc. Like I said, he's learning but improving every day. So, probably by next year or at least by the time he hits middle school, he'll have the knowledge AND skill to negotiate traffic on his bike by himself.
Oh, and he rides a 24" Trek MTB now but hopefully next year, we'll be able to upgrade him to a road bike
I have a 9 yr. old son (Like your daughter, Michel, he'll be 10 in June). We bike in traffic almost every day; To and from school, the grocery, etc. I have and continue to teach him the rules of the road, the laws, and how to handle himself as another vehicle on the streets and I think he will be a better driver in the future because of his experience. I don't think he is quite ready to hit the open road by himself however. He is still learning how to judge the speed of cars versus his speed and he doesn't have his timing down well enough to accurately judge when to go and when to wait. Therefore, he pays attention to what is going on but he waits for me to tell him when to merge left, etc. etc. Like I said, he's learning but improving every day. So, probably by next year or at least by the time he hits middle school, he'll have the knowledge AND skill to negotiate traffic on his bike by himself.
Oh, and he rides a 24" Trek MTB now but hopefully next year, we'll be able to upgrade him to a road bike
03-30-06, 09:10 AM
#30
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Currently BC has a limited program to teach safe cycling to children in schools 12 years old and under. It's specifically aimed at this age group and "adult" courses (Can-Bike) are not availible in schools but can be taken (for a cost, of course) for teens.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
Child cyclists lack ability to judge traffic
Study finds young riders are less able to gauge how much time they have to cross busy streets
By ANDRÉ PICARD
PUBLIC HEALTH REPORTER
UPDATED AT 1:11 AM EDT Friday, Jul 16, 2004
Children -- even those as old as 12 -- may not have the cognitive abilities to cross the street safely on their bicycles, according to a new study.
The research reveals that children have difficulty judging when it is safe to skirt through the gaps in oncoming traffic and routinely overestimate how quickly they can cross the street, details that may help explain why so many children are injured and killed in collisions with motor vehicles.
"Children have more difficulty than adults in fitting their actions to the environment," said Jodie Plumert, a
psychology professor at the University of Iowa and lead author of the study.
"This may be particularly problematic in dynamic situations, where children must co-ordinate their own movement in relation to the movement of objects in the environment."
To conduct the study, published in today's edition of the Journal Child Development, researchers used virtual reality technology to allow participants to "ride" a stationery bicycle through a residential neighbourhood, where cars were travelling between 50 and 70 kilometres an hour.
The technology allowed researchers to, for the first time, put children in dangerous real-world situations, without actually having them risk injury.
The research team found that children and adults chose exactly the same size gaps in traffic to attempt crossing.
But the ability to actually cross was very different.
Adults cleared the lane, on average, two seconds before a car passed, but with children it was less than one second.
Dr. Plumert said the children left so little margin for error, there was not enough time to recover from even the smallest hesitation, such as a foot slipping off the pedal.
Allyson Hewitt, executive director of Safe Kids Canada, said the new research provides valuable information for parents and drivers alike.
"In our society, we tend to think of children as little adults. But this study shows us quite clearly that, even at age 12, a child on a bike doesn't have the same abilities as an adult," she said.
"Just because you put a helmet on your child and he assures you that he's big enough to go out riding alone doesn't mean that he actually has the ability," Ms. Hewitt cautioned.
Safety equipment, safety training and improved environments (such as bicycle paths and enforcement of traffic laws) can all reduce the number of injuries and deaths, she added.
About 80 per cent of Canadian children have a bicycle but the rate is higher in rural than urban areas. Safe Kids has, for years, said that children should not cross the street alone before age nine because they did not have adequate cognitive abilities to judge traffic.
Ms. Hewitt said the group may have to re-think that message because the new research shows that, even at age 12, there are serious gaps between children's perceptions and their abilities.
Study finds young riders are less able to gauge how much time they have to cross busy streets
By ANDRÉ PICARD
PUBLIC HEALTH REPORTER
UPDATED AT 1:11 AM EDT Friday, Jul 16, 2004
Children -- even those as old as 12 -- may not have the cognitive abilities to cross the street safely on their bicycles, according to a new study.
The research reveals that children have difficulty judging when it is safe to skirt through the gaps in oncoming traffic and routinely overestimate how quickly they can cross the street, details that may help explain why so many children are injured and killed in collisions with motor vehicles.
"Children have more difficulty than adults in fitting their actions to the environment," said Jodie Plumert, a
psychology professor at the University of Iowa and lead author of the study.
"This may be particularly problematic in dynamic situations, where children must co-ordinate their own movement in relation to the movement of objects in the environment."
To conduct the study, published in today's edition of the Journal Child Development, researchers used virtual reality technology to allow participants to "ride" a stationery bicycle through a residential neighbourhood, where cars were travelling between 50 and 70 kilometres an hour.
The technology allowed researchers to, for the first time, put children in dangerous real-world situations, without actually having them risk injury.
The research team found that children and adults chose exactly the same size gaps in traffic to attempt crossing.
But the ability to actually cross was very different.
Adults cleared the lane, on average, two seconds before a car passed, but with children it was less than one second.
Dr. Plumert said the children left so little margin for error, there was not enough time to recover from even the smallest hesitation, such as a foot slipping off the pedal.
Allyson Hewitt, executive director of Safe Kids Canada, said the new research provides valuable information for parents and drivers alike.
"In our society, we tend to think of children as little adults. But this study shows us quite clearly that, even at age 12, a child on a bike doesn't have the same abilities as an adult," she said.
"Just because you put a helmet on your child and he assures you that he's big enough to go out riding alone doesn't mean that he actually has the ability," Ms. Hewitt cautioned.
Safety equipment, safety training and improved environments (such as bicycle paths and enforcement of traffic laws) can all reduce the number of injuries and deaths, she added.
About 80 per cent of Canadian children have a bicycle but the rate is higher in rural than urban areas. Safe Kids has, for years, said that children should not cross the street alone before age nine because they did not have adequate cognitive abilities to judge traffic.
Ms. Hewitt said the group may have to re-think that message because the new research shows that, even at age 12, there are serious gaps between children's perceptions and their abilities.
03-30-06, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
Currently BC has a limited program to teach safe cycling to children in schools 12 years old and under. It's specifically aimed at this age group and "adult" courses (Can-Bike) are not availible in schools but can be taken (for a cost, of course) for teens.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
I remembered an article that was printed in The Globe and Mail a couple of years ago.
03-30-06, 10:21 AM
#32
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I have another study done on cycling collisions where it says the same thing. That there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them.
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
03-30-06, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by closetbiker
When safety is mentioned in cycling there seems to be no shortage of using childrens accidents on bicycles, padding claims that cycling is dangerous.
03-30-06, 11:35 AM
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Yes, this thread is interesting because it shows a lot of consistencies in the observations, experiences and studies brought into the mix:
- 4-5 years is a good age to start teaching our kids some skills under close supervision in a selectively chosen environment (very safe with very low and very slow traffic). At this age, they can learn some important things such as riding on the right hand side, in a straight line, watching for vehicles pulling out of driveways etc. Close supervision means being followed or preceded closely by an adult on a bike (or a fast runner ). I do that with my daughter and she is definitly more skilled and safer than most other kids of her age (and older) that are either let go or restrained to the driveway or sidewalk.
But that's it, there is not much more I would expect. I am also aware of the limitations, particularly a rapid loss of concentration as the kid gets a little tired and a tendency to get distracted easily. They're little kids, how different do you really want to have them?
- 5 to 10: Continue building-up skills with more independence, but close supervision is still required and environment should remain safe. I think Forester's experiment demonstrates this, it is simply brought at a more challenging level with a framework that most parents wan't be able to provide ; so I would tend to be more conservative in this age range. closetbiker sums it up correctly: "there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them" and that's where the limits we need to be aware of are.
- ~10 is a good age to start let go on supervision, provided that the kid has been exposed to the preceding stages. Other activities exercised or exposure to some other environment may also play a role in the kids maturity and readiness to deal with the new challenges.
bilhh asks about 10-14, well there can be a big difference between these two ages but in general 10 years old should only be considered as an entry level into the next phase, not a point where it all happens at once. Most forteen years old who have been exposed to some degree of responsibility and tought the appropriate skills are ready to take the lane and do pretty much what a young adult can do , (meaning not entirely wise ). Within this age bracket, I am hoping that at some stage my daughter will begin to take her bike to school and her friends'. ellenDSD, I will PM you for some tips at this stage, great job!
OK, hit me now for being overprotective or an irresponsible nut
- 4-5 years is a good age to start teaching our kids some skills under close supervision in a selectively chosen environment (very safe with very low and very slow traffic). At this age, they can learn some important things such as riding on the right hand side, in a straight line, watching for vehicles pulling out of driveways etc. Close supervision means being followed or preceded closely by an adult on a bike (or a fast runner
). I do that with my daughter and she is definitly more skilled and safer than most other kids of her age (and older) that are either let go or restrained to the driveway or sidewalk.But that's it, there is not much more I would expect. I am also aware of the limitations, particularly a rapid loss of concentration as the kid gets a little tired and a tendency to get distracted easily. They're little kids, how different do you really want to have them?
- 5 to 10: Continue building-up skills with more independence, but close supervision is still required and environment should remain safe. I think Forester's experiment demonstrates this, it is simply brought at a more challenging level with a framework that most parents wan't be able to provide ; so I would tend to be more conservative in this age range. closetbiker sums it up correctly: "there is some cognitive differences in how kids see things and adults see them" and that's where the limits we need to be aware of are.
- ~10 is a good age to start let go on supervision, provided that the kid has been exposed to the preceding stages. Other activities exercised or exposure to some other environment may also play a role in the kids maturity and readiness to deal with the new challenges.
bilhh asks about 10-14, well there can be a big difference between these two ages but in general 10 years old should only be considered as an entry level into the next phase, not a point where it all happens at once. Most forteen years old who have been exposed to some degree of responsibility and tought the appropriate skills are ready to take the lane and do pretty much what a young adult can do , (meaning not entirely wise
). Within this age bracket, I am hoping that at some stage my daughter will begin to take her bike to school and her friends'. ellenDSD, I will PM you for some tips at this stage, great job!OK, hit me now for being overprotective or an irresponsible nut
03-30-06, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by billh
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Originally Posted by Chipcom
The OP's words regarding taking the lane come off to me more like cutting off drivers, rather than merging when it is safe to do so and negotiating the space you need if traffic is heavy. Of course he also alludes to the 'pressure' of riding in traffic, which is something I can't identify with...I don't feel any more pressure riding my bike in traffic than I do walking down the street, and definitely feel less pressure than when driving, working or trying to get into a restaurant.
Originally Posted by billh
Yes, I feel the "pressure".
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
03-30-06, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Having basis in my position, I have no need to avoid your questions about my statements.
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
I would say that Chipcom sounds like someone who actually rides IN traffic vehicularly and comfortably, while you sound like someone who tries to ride outside and/or around traffic as much possible, rather than IN traffic vehicularly, and will only "mix it up" when you have no alternative, and even then, reluctantly, due to all the self-imposed "pressure" you feel.
How did I do?
03-31-06, 05:44 PM
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I think we're asking the wrong question here. The way the original post was worded, it sounds like "taking the lane" is an alternative to some safer technique. The reality for me is I take the lane because I've learned that in certain situations it's the safest way. If you're going to ride in traffic, and on roads where you have no choice but to ride in traffic, you should be taking the lane.
The question should really be, at what age should kids ride in traffic?
The question should really be, at what age should kids ride in traffic?
