Idaho. Though I hope Oregon may see something similar pass this coming legislative session. We'll see. Meantime, as I suspect most drivers, pedestrians, and other cyclists cannot read my mind, I will continue to follow the Oregon Revised Statues as they are instead of what I wish they would be. There is also the matter of a potential $242 traffic ticket that I would risk by making the choice to break the law. I'm not interested in getting one of those.

Thanks Robert... I fully understand your commentary... I was once employed as a pedicab operator... spending long hours in the saddle. Certainly the need to run red lights was not an issue for me, but riding on sidewalks was... which is marginally unlawful, depending on your exact location and the laws of the area. So I understand your comments of having to be a cog in the machine and all.

But lets go this one further... messengers, like Ambulance drivers, are folks with a particular requirement to go beyond the usual regulations that most drivers and cyclists have to conform to... and they gain and improve that skill set over time. Should that specialized behaviour extend to the rest of us?

There in lies the rub. For the average cyclist, lane positioning and waiting out a light are probably safer in the long run... so should light running be advocated for the masses?

I personally have run my share of lights when I was younger... and I know how easily it can be done, and damn if it doesn't feel good to keep moving and get out ahead of the pool of traffic... but is this method for the masses?

I contend that we gather the data from the one state that does allow this and then make the decisions later when we can fully examine the facts.

This model is much like the "right on red" model for many states (do any still require stop and no go on right turns?). At first, there were only a few states supporting right on red, then later the changes in the law swept through most of the states, based on the success stories.

This same scenario is what I also suggest for "bikes go first," or whatever we might call this.

Idaho... man was I off. Thanks.

But the point is that one state does allow this... so let's gather the data and push it if it looks good.

At the end of the day, I would say no.

Commuters shouldn't ride like messengers any more than messengers should ride like commuters. The two worlds are separate and distinct, for the reasons I mentioned in my last post, and what is expected of one is not proper behavior in the other.

There is an undeniable joy in the messenger's freedom from traffic laws. I won't lie to ya , Gene. It rocks the house. Non-messengers can borrow a bit from this style but if you want to ride in full-on messenger mode, there is only one way to do it: as a messenger. If you want to ride like a rookie messenger, then become a rookie messenger. Get paid, get treated, get no health insurance, and be accountable to your boss and clients like a rookie messenger. That's the trade-off.

That said, I agree with much of the spirit of the OP. I don't buy the right-hook as a grave danger, I find it entirely avoidable, but if he means to say that simply following traffic law is not the true basis for safe riding, then I agree with him. Otherwise how could a fellar like me run half a million red lights, never get touched, but get creamed while riding lawfully down the street. Green light intersections do a lot more damage to messengers than the reds. Green lights are hypnotic. The green light is the sleeping pill of traffic signals.

Robert

I don't know, I-L-T-B, maybe they're not trying to. Maybe it's just me. What's clear to me from comments I hear is that many motorists and probably cyclists mistake these people for working messengers. Hell, I might, if I didn't already know all of the relatively small number of messengers in my city. Whether that is their goal or not, to be mistaken for messengers, I'm not sure.

Even the rookie messengers look more like 'messengers' these days. It's hard to explain. Things sure have changed. My friend Carlos is a 12-year messenger who started in Chicago literally on a Huffy with an army duffelbag strapped to his back. That was a fairly typical rookie not long ago, refugees from other lines of work, from prison, from England, etc. Just random weird folks, maybe bike lovers maybe not, who happened to end up as messengers. These days, I sh*t you not, all the rookie messengers come from a sort of 'minor league' pool of coffee shop kids who dress in archetypal messenger outfits, ride track bikes, and who preen for and ingratiate themselves to the employed riders for months at a time in a bizarre sort of politico-mating dance, in hopes of landing that dream messenger job. Check it out I've already got the whole look down! It's freaky dude.

Bike messengering's rise as a cultural Thing corresponds to its precipitous descent as a way to pay the rent. Coincidence?

People can dress up like Ronald McDonald for all I care. But then, I am not Ronald McDonald.

You're in Iowa right? There are no working bike messengers in Iowa. There, that was easy.

Seriously, I-L-T-B, there are not very many actual bike messengers out there. You could put all the messengers in North America in a high school gym, have a pep rally, and any messenger-looking types outside the gym could then be easily gathered up and sent to the camps. That's one way to do it.

Double-seriously, you can tell a working messenger by their fingernails. Messengers have filthy hands and fingernails. And 95% of working messengers will have a nextel, alpha-numeric pager, or both strapped right onto their bag right next to their eardrum. There I said it.

Robert

Ooops, now half of the fixie forum members are scrambling to find the best hand grimer and the right strap to hold their newly purchased nextels to their ear. ;)

But seriously, where I live there are no (working) messengers, so its easy to pick out the faux ones.

Al

Indeed, veteran and active messenger here. Do I like breaking traffic laws? At this point im indifferent, its part of what I do. But make no mistake about it, what many see as reckless is actually usually very cold and calculating. In my office which is downtown Columbus,OH, I know what any given traffic light is doing around me at any time just by looking at one of them and glancing at the traffic patterns, its that automatic. I know where I can cheat and where I need to be cautious. I can do things on my bike that rec riders ususally cant, mostly just from sheer repetition and practice. I know what the sounds of the city are and when they are wrong, and all the other danger signals to be wary of. That too is part of the job, its what makes veterans like me that can do 70 stops in 7 hours or less worth more than a rookie that struggles to do 30-40. Just knowledge and experience and the stamina to do it day in and day out, and thats just the riding part. Much of my job also involves court house work, for all practical purposes im a cross tween a paralegal/law clerk and a messenger that can go from point A to point B quicker than most office people can make their way to their cars LOL. We are indeed creatures of the system, it has needs and we fill that need, our behavior is a reflection of that.

I can tell ya few other things to look for:not just dirty hands, but callouses from riding lots of miles w/o gloves, a sort of weathered look and 1000yard stare for the real long term veterans, no patience for BS of anykind when working, callouses on the feet from pedals if you ever see their feet LOL. A certain style of riding many of us pickup after a few years that can best be described as very direct and aggressive when needed but also economy of motion, you learn to use energy when needed but save it when possible. Yes we are quite rare, there's 1.1 million people in the columbus metro area and 22 messengers currently, and out of those 22 only about 10 or so ride more than 30 miles a day. You show up at one of our alleycats and us guys will be easy to pick out after the first 5 minutes of the race, the rest will get smoked bigtime, always do. But outside of the street or racing you would be hard pressed to pick us out because of all the groupies and pretenders, but talking to us briefly usually dispels all the BS.

OK that resolves that issue, plain and simple... and I think suggesting it to the common cyclist is rather asking for trouble. But Idaho does have a law that allows this in some form, so let's wait for the data and see how well it works. Then decide.

OK I have seen the videos and when younger, I rode more in that manner also. :D

Now this is an interesting statement... First why can one fare better in one cycling style and not the other...

I think it comes down to the individual looking out for number one, not co-operating based on laws, but only on immediate need... but even that individual method works en masse if you look at some Asian Nations.

Now looking at the part of the statement where you say " ...not the basis for safe riding... "
Well, take a look at traffic in Viet Nam or China, and yes, there it seems to indicate messenger or "all for yourself survival traffic" works and is the proper way.

In the case when you were hit, had the person that hit you violated any of the traffic laws? Violation of traffic laws by another throws our whole system out of kilter... because it is so dependent on all users following that rigid system.

Yes, I was recently reminded of this in a very close call. Again our regular system depends highly on the "kindness of strangers." Or shoud I say "trust."

All the groupies? Really? What do the groupies ride? Got some pictures? :)

The fixie fellows on the commuter list claim fixed gear bicycles are babe magnets; Is it the bike or the type of person who looks like a messenger; or is such talk really wishful thinking or an urban legend? Inquirring minds want to know!

I agree, and Ive actually seen this in action as far as not only cars or pedestrains but even police sometimes, literally being ok with some of the illegal stuff we do. We get to ride like messengers because we ARE messengers, society for some reason has in some cities either gotten used to it or just accepted it for what we are and do. Sure, sometimes the law gets pissed and writes some tickets, but ive seen them have a pretty care free attitude and tell me to my face, "hey, we really dont like some of the things you guys do, but we dont get complaints, you guys do your thing and keep it pretty clean, so we leave you alone, so keep it that way and its cool". Same with cars, when riding in traffic with that bag on your back and your zippng in and out of a 5 lane one way full of cars moving in a pack at 18-20 mph cars will not only respect you, but prettymuch let you do what you want and not even blink an eye other than wondering how you can do it to begin with. Yes sometimes the style many of use actually probably while breaking the law, keeps us out of harms way, right or wrong it is what it is. Things like running a light so your in between packs of cars on a timed set of traffic lights. Things like riding like we own the street and directing traffic sometimes are all part of the deal. You spend 4-8 hours or more a day 5 days a week in all sorts of weather out on the street it becomes your office, bike commuters just pass thru my office, they dont even get a day pass, they havent and dont spend enough time to even understand. If they have the power, speed and confidence to ride like that, then the needle on my respect meter will wiggle a nudge, but most of the time, they cant because they just arent capable of it, its learned and earned. Chaotic movements of a bunch of systems made to flow smoothly and fluid as you pass thru, thats all it is, and riding a fixed gear is like swinging a sword thats in constant motion. Riding for a living is a different animal than riding to a an office for work.

groupies usually look like posengers, or messenger poseurs, old steel fixies and SS's mostly

range of young guys and chicks from the local art/bar/gallery/college/vegetarian/environment type crowd

it isnt the bike, its the whole package and lifestyle, some chicks find it romantic I guess, broad shoulders,skinny waist, athletic, ripped legs, and work ethic to do a job few can do or want to do, it has its appeal

Thanks for the reasonable explanation.

Here something that came out of a french newspaper.

I'll try to search for a english version but here

http://www2.canoe.com/infos/societe/...08-055602.html

Translation

Last year in montreal 4 cyclist haved died, in three of those case involve cyclist running a red light.

Translation
-Accident between cars and bikes
- 5 death in quebec since the beginning of the year
- 600 000 cyclist in montreal
- 824 accident in montreal in 2005 including 4 death
- in a study of 47 more serious case 57% were due to cyclist imprudence.
- 37% due to running a red light
- 19% due to going the wong way
- 13% due to running a stop sign
- 1800 tickets in 2005
- Principal reason ( did not stop at when a stop was require 37$ fine. Not sure if it refere to stop sign or what else. I think it is but.)
- accident in 2005 in quebec:2635 including 16 death

As you can see most accident are due to cyclist doing stupid thing.
Ok you may argue that in some case it safe to pass red light.

Now what all the kids see? Adult passing throught red light. What they will do? The same thing but when it's not appropriate.

It can be safe sometime but then if you allow it some people with less jugment will do it when it dangerous.

The discussion has nothing at all to do with right hooks (improper bicyclists lane position) and everything to do with a practice that is illegal in all states but one (you cannot use other nations for comparison because they don't have the same uniform vehicle code as the US) for all vehicles using the roadway. We are not "special" vehicles except in that we move slower than other vehicles. Moving to the front of a line of cars is bad enough but to claim that you are ''safer" because you are out in front of them is just plain goofy! You have all of the cars you passed having to pass you again and, because you are rude...yes rude!...they are mad at you for violating a law that they have to follow. Using your argument, that running reds is just hunky dory if there is no other traffic on the cross street, what to keep people in their car from doing the same thing. Why have any rules of the road at all? Let's just make this a wide open free-for-all where whomever is the most daring has the right-of-way. That would do wonders for our roads.

And, since you seem to still be a teenager who has problems understanding that your actions have consequences, what do you say to the next cyclist that the drivers you pissed off brush by too close and run off the road or injure? "Oh, sorry dude. But I had to get somewhere faster than those clowns in cars. And my convenience is more important than your safety, Dude."

I do not 'run' a functioning light. Period. I do not run a light that has been tripped by other vehicles. Period. I know how induction loops work (and have explained them to people ad infinitum here, to no avail, apparently) and I can trip just about any light in the City of Denver with my bicycle, if I can find where the center of the loop is. Repaving will sometimes bury those loops but I know which ones those are and either avoid them or have some other way of tripping them (like pushing a call button if necessary). As others have told you, if the light is nonfunctioning - truly can't be tripped - I will wait a long time - 2 to 3 minutes - with my foot on the ground and then proceed with extreme caution to cross the street. However, if a car is present at the loop either in on-coming traffic or in my lane, I will wait until the light turns green. But I would never go through a red light if other traffic is present...unless the light is nonfunctioning for them too.

But I am seeing several people per day not just shooting through lights but some of them at high speed. On one particular stretch of my commute (a fast downhill with a light in the middle of the hill), I regularly see people pass cars on the left :eek: to go around them at a light to make a right turn. Anyone can easily do this hill at 30 mph and they often are going much faster than that. And they splitting the lane between two-way traffic. And, since they all seem to be dressed for the serious bicycle rider part, they know better! But, hey, they see all the other cyclists running reds all the time so why not?

So maybe I just want to see this happen in Oregon :D , but I think there is room for more than one state to try this. I suspect the law is going to work in Idaho just because of the smaller population. Although parts of Oregon and Idaho are very similar in population, culture, and types of roads, there are a lot of cyclists in Portland, Salem, Corvallis, Eugene, Ashland, etc. - very organized urban cyclists, plus some suburban type areas outside of Portland and Eugene. I'm really interested in seeing what this kind of law does in a city like Portland with just over a half million people and a fairly high number of cyclists for a US city. Idaho just can't give us that kind of data.

Actually I suspect it will work because most of us do it at one time or another and get away with it. All the law does, is sanction it. Motorists still won't know about the law... (do they EVER know the laws about cycling... ) and will just continue to see red light running cyclists as scofflaws.

two bikes approach a blind intersection...both decide to ignore the traffic control signal (stop sign, in this case)...the result? a really funny accident ('funny' because both seemed not hurt) with both riders yelling at the other about NOT stopping...saw this while walking the dog!

Pennsylvania law allows for the crossing of a red light under certain circumstances:

http://www.dot.state.pa.us/bike/web/road_tough.htm

But you have to wait first. I like the part about who would be at fault if you followed the law, and got hit. For this reason, I will be following the law as it exists currently.

See this video for a system that does not rely on "trust" but more a "survival" form of "all for yourself" traffic. Seems to flow nicely in all directions at once.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxWPglrRD0Q

maybe you live in candycane land? some choice quotes:

bullsh*t. there is no rigid system. not for cars, not for bikes. so many of the people here... your analysis of society and the role and function of law sounds like it comes out of a third grade civics lesson. everyone breaks these minor laws. the law was not made to be obeyed. speed limits are a perfect example, where, i would venture to say, virtually 100% of the country disobeys the speed regulations. jaywalking is another (for all the johnny do gooder angels out there in bikeforums/candycane land, "jaywalking" is when you walk across the street on red)

what system? theres a bunch of words, and signs. thats one system. then theres the system that is the way we ride that keeps us alive. in that system, trust means "trusting" a driver will always do their best to screw you over and behaving accordingly. its called riding defensively and it requires the assumption that drivers will do the jankiest thing possible and the proper response is to make sure you can maneuver appropriately in that case.

but seriously, much of this convo (with the exception of a few refreshing posters who havent had their lobotomies yet) really reads like elementary school. do we still believe that words on paper protect you like some kind of magic invocation? when did a bunch of mouth-breathing public "planners" and their pathetic excuse for a traffic system turn us all into such true believers?

Some of us starry-eyed idealists still haven't given up on the whole "Rule of Law" concept yet. I'm sure that as more legal deconstructionalists get behind the wheels of cars and on bicycles, we'll get that saccharine fluffiness knocked out of us quite literally. On the other hand, perhaps traffic patterns ala Mad Max will perk us up on the morning commute.

BS... wanna see a system that works like you describe... go back a few posts to the link I posted... and compare that to the orderliness of a typical American street. We're not even close to the choas you seem to envision.