Helmet Head

In a statement that says nothing about how I feel about any of you, how could it clear up how I feel about all of you?

What it clears up is what I think about most of the posts in this forum and any other forum. It is very, very difficult to identify and establish consensus on every premise one's opinion is based on. So, most posts end up being opinions stated without basis.

What I usually try to do is make clear a few basic premises, and then show how certain assertions (conclusions) follow logically from those premises.

chipcom 

I think it would be useful to de-generalize 'novice cyclists' I think you have two camps that fall into that category. The first are those who never rode a bike as a kid and just started cycliing - these are the folks that probably closely resemble what you describe. But you also have folks who did ride bicycles as kids, then 'grew up' and didn't touch a bike for years until finally rediscovering it. My brother and his wife fall into this category. They may be rusty, but they remember many of the lessons learned as kids...and we learned a lot of lessons about riding when we were kids, whether we were riding on the sidewalks, bombing down bridle paths (no mups or BL back then), or riding the roads. Not only do they remember these early experiences, they also have years of experience operating motor vehicles on the roads.

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but around here, even today, the vast majority of kids ride bikes. I think majority of 'novice' cyclists today fall into the latter category with my brother. They are just rusty, not inexperienced or naive to the rules of the road and how to safely ride a bike on the road or on the sidewalk.

It's not elitist to be more experienced, it's elitist to think that our experience somehow makes us a better cyclist than someone else or that our way of riding is somehow the 'right' way. Yes, you and I ride the roads, but that doesn't make those who PREFER to ride the sidewalks or the MUPs any less of a cyclist or any less competent in their own environment.

chipcom 

It's your definition of what is logical that we usually take issue with, as well as some of your premises and assumptions.

joejack951

Point taken about different degrees of novice cyclists.

I do see a lot of kids out on bikes but most just ride in the neighborhood. A few do go out onto the real roads but they stick to the sidewalks. The few adults that I've seen riding the sidewalks have not demonstrated that they've learned much about riding sidewalks as kids though.

I don't think I ever compared how I ride on the roads to how someone else cycles on the sidewalks (except at intersections which aren't really sidewalks any more) or MUPs. You can't really compare the two. However, there are some obvious ways you can say that one style of riding on the roads is better than another (left turns from the right edge of the road, riding next to parked cars, wrong way riding, etc.). That's what I was trying to get at. Some of these things are obvious to most but some take either experience or someone with experience to get the concept to sink in.

tomcryar

You say 95% of our posts come completely out of our arse's?? And then you say as a response "what it clears up is what I think about most of the posts on this forum......."
How am I supposed to think that doesn't say everything about how you feel?

genec

Hate to burst your bubble, but even drivers perceive differences in other drivers in different areas... if a "vehicular cyclist" does not perceive a difference in motorists while in different areas, then frankly that cyclist is not very perceptive.

And I am speaking of simple subtle differences.

This was recently brought home to me while driving (much more on the cycling aspects in a future thread) on 2 lane freeways in Oregon and California. In Oregon the motorists tend to stay to the right, except to pass. In California the motorists tended to drive where they wanted to and did not move from their lane... period. The latter made for aggressive motorist actions like tailgating to get a motorist to change lanes... thus making the stress levels on the freeways higher in CA. The real interesting part was that this activity occurs shortly after crossing the state line.

I have also noticed very significant differences in the treatment cyclists get while in the US and while in Baja... Night and Day.

Helmet Head

Welcome back, Gene.

We disagree on what constitutes "significant".

I have long noticed the difference between CA drivers and most other states, and all other countries so far as I know, about "fast lane" usage. Whether this is a "significant" difference or not... whatever.

Let's just say it's not night and day.

I'll take your word for it that cyclist treatment in Mexico is significantly different, though it's hard to imagine how I could be treated any better than I already am.

Helmet Head

How I feel about someone's posts has little if anything to do with how I feel about them as a person.

Bekologist

blah, blah, blah.

one single sign in helmet heads neighborhood would do scads more to show 'bikes belong' than his occasional, part time bicycle commuting.

Signage, a vigorous transportation network that supports bicycling in the regional transit grid, and advocacy efforts like PSA's and the like will have a greater effect, on several orders of magnitude, then helmies part-time bicycling.

I ride 365, i'm doing my part up here, but I know for a fact one single sign would do more to educate others that 'bikes belong', than my transitory, empheral riding...

joejack951

So I'm riding my bicycle home from work yesterday as I do year round. I've just come down a hill at around 25mph on a 25mph road, stopped a stop sign, then proceeded to go straight. Before the stop sign, the roadway is wide enough to share but as I'm going the speed limit and approaching both a speed bump and a stop sign, I always ride center in the lane. After the stop sign the road narrows so being already centered has many advantages. There's a line of cars at the stop sign going the opposite direction. Some dude in his pickmeup truck rolls down his window and yells at me to "Share the road, don't hog it!" So much for those "Share the Road" signs educating motorists. Where do you think he got the idea that I should be all the way over to the right at all times?

Bekologist

tom lykis? shock radio? anti bike invective hes picked up on from other, frustrated drivers??

they talk like that, i've heard. many drivers are idiots. maybe he was a bicyclist when he doesn't drive. like helmet hed. maybe it WAS helemt hed....


at least he'd actually heard of 'share the road.' maybe he got it from a sign....

gpsblake

How to convince others that bikes belong on the road?

tough question considering the number of bicyclist who ignore the law, run red lights, ride against traffic, want to be a vehicle when they want to but want to be considered otherwise when they want to.

I blame the police for failing to enforce traffic laws on bicyclist. I think if the police would treat bicyclist like other traffic, then those of us who do obey the law while cycling would earn some respect.

Bekologist

...some of this stuff is hilarious.....