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Taking a more agressive & pro-active approach.

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Taking a more agressive & pro-active approach.

Old 02-06-07, 08:07 PM
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We musta come in at the intermission.
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Old 02-06-07, 08:24 PM
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I have explained what some of the problems are. I don't have enough time to list them all. If HH or anyone else does not understand this then sorry but these are some of the problems plain & simple I don't know how else to explain it. Things are being done to correct these problems.
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Old 02-06-07, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by N_C
I have explained what some of the problems are. I don't have enough time to list them all. If HH or anyone else does not understand this then sorry but these are some of the problems plain & simple I don't know how else to explain it. Things are being done to correct these problems.
Don't feel bad...you think talking to me is frustrating? When it comes to discussing cycling facilities and advocacy, HH will make you want to bang your head against the wall while slitting your wrists. Avoid talking bike lanes and driver education and you might make it out just slightly scarred.
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Old 02-06-07, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by N_C
I have explained what some of the problems are. I don't have enough time to list them all. If HH or anyone else does not understand this then sorry but these are some of the problems plain & simple I don't know how else to explain it. Things are being done to correct these problems.
So do you plan on putting as much effort into your advocacy work as you've shown here in this thread or do you plan on taking things a little more seriously in the real world? Did any of HH's questions at least get you thinking about how to present your argument? I would hope so. If you've noticed, he's trying to get you thinking like the average road user who has no idea what effects certain roadway designs or conditions have on a cyclist. You'll need to sell your ideas to people like that if you want to make any changes. Do you really thinking Joe Schmoe Pickmeup Driver has thought about has parallel bar drainage grates might affect a cyclist? These are the types of details you'll need to provide so that the work that is done actually makes a difference. Judging by your last statement though it sounds like the ball is already rolling.
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Old 02-06-07, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Don't feel bad...you think talking to me is frustrating? When it comes to discussing cycling facilities and advocacy, HH will make you want to bang your head against the wall while slitting your wrists. Avoid talking bike lanes and driver education and you might make it out just slightly scarred.
As a former politician, or is it once a politician always a polictician, did you ever have to deal with an advocacy organization or individual asking for a Complete Streets Policy, that a roadway be put on a diet, that funding be requested for a Safe Routes To School program, or something similar? If none of these, then anything at all regarding bicycle facilties or advocacy? If you did have to deal with it what happened?
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Old 02-06-07, 10:44 PM
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N_C, regardless of the context, it is always important to ask, and be able to answer, "What problem are we trying to solve?" It's not as easy as it it sounds, but it's essential to answer before moving on to thinking about solutions... Otherwise, you don't really know what problem you're trying to solve, and, so have no way to know where to start, or when you're done, or anything in between.

Give it some thought, and another shot. You'll be glad you did.
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Old 02-06-07, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by N_C
As a former politician, or is it once a politician always a polictician, did you ever have to deal with an advocacy organization or individual asking for a Complete Streets Policy, that a roadway be put on a diet, that funding be requested for a Safe Routes To School program, or something similar? If none of these, then anything at all regarding bicycle facilties or advocacy? If you did have to deal with it what happened?
I had to deal with the rebuilding of our entire main street and all the competing factions who had their own ideas what it should look like. Unfortunately, despite my own cycling lifestyle, the cycling 'advocates' were split between those who wanted bike lanes and those who vehemently opposed them, preferring just wide lanes. Both sides came off as extremists who refused to compromise. In the end, because the 'advocates' spent so much time bickering amongst themselves and could not compromise, the project had no bike lanes and instead of wide outside lanes, medians were installed with trees and shrubs (the beautification folks DID have their act together) that died and fell into disrepair within a year of planting.

The moral of the story - if you want to get something done, you have to have the support of people and organizations that have proven voting power, speak with a unified voice, and are willing to compromise and accept long term solutions rather than getting everything they want in the short term. In short you gotta have your ducks in line and the right people/groups behind you....which means sometimes you gotta give them something in return for their support.

As much as I pick on HH, having a debate in here with him and everyone else can only help you to get your ducks in line...if you can't articulate the plan and it's long and short term benefits and have options for the potential roadblocks and pitfalls, you won't have credibility - but the political part, building consensus and gathering support, is something you can only do there, on the ground. Now, to be brutally honest...I think your skills in that area need improvement - a diplomat you are not You tend to give the perception that you are tooting your own horn and that people who do not agree with you are the enemy. That doesn't cut it when you are trying to get people to do something that might be easier for them not to bother with. You gotta make it easier to do what you want than not to, you gotta stroke em and cuddle em and treat em like they are your best friend.

You have to persuade the right people to support what you want done, not by trying to sell them on what YOU believe, but by showing them how it meets THEIR wants, needs and goals, even leading them to think some things are their own ideas, rather than yours, allowing them to take credit, whether it is due or not, and giving up non-core pieces of your plan as trade-offs to help them soothe the interests of their own constituencies. Indeed, sometimes it's better to let others, with more power, skill and influence, take the lead to push the project through and take the credit, even if you are still the one doing all the grunt work. Sometimes you get more done by pushing and prodding behind the scenes rather than trying to take the lead and make your face the public face. If you want credit, you're going to be disappointed...credit goes to those pretty folks with the smiles and charisma that makes people like them and want to follow them. Like me, you ain't one of those people, so you gotta be the one who pulls their strings behind the scenes and get your satisfaction from seeing the job get done.

You know me, I don't pull any punches, I call em like I see em, so don't get offended by me telling you straight. Others will have other advice...look at what they are saying, rather than how they say it and how it affects your ego. You think ILTB and me always got along? Ha, we used to tear each other apart until we got past the egos and saw that we agreed more than we disagreed and were spending more time attacking each other rather than listening to what the other was saying. Sometimes you gotta look past how something is said to understand what is being said.
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Last edited by chipcom; 02-06-07 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 02-06-07, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
As much as I pick on HH, having a debate in here with him...
For the record, there is no debate between N_C and me. There is nothing to debate.

I'm just trying to help N_C think a little deeper about what he is doing, and why.
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Old 02-06-07, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
For the record, there is no debate between N_C and me. There is nothing to debate.

I'm just trying to help N_C think a little deeper about what he is doing, and why.
Ok discussion....or inquisition...it all has value.
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Old 02-06-07, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Ok discussion....or inquisition...it all has value.
Hopefully. Depending on whether N_C does the thinking and writes out his answers...
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Old 02-06-07, 11:45 PM
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HH, looking at the issues N_C faces in Iowa is not viewable as a problem/solution equasion. it is a quality issue.


quality of life, quality of community. quality of riding.

Problem/solution is dichotomous and does NOT address what N_C is looking at. Status Quo versus improvements in quality of non motorized transportation infrastructure, N_C.

Don't listen to HH, he's the anti-cyclist. he's just mining for information to use against community bicycling advocacy, bro.
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Old 02-06-07, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by derath
Waiting for the "Taking a more agressive & pro-active approach II" thread to start.

-D
Wouldn't that be a loaded Helmet Head poll on "taking a more proactive approach" with a leading question and skewed anwsers, Derath?
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Old 02-06-07, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
I had to deal with the rebuilding of our entire main street and all the competing factions who had their own ideas what it should look like. Unfortunately, despite my own cycling lifestyle, the cycling 'advocates' were split between those who wanted bike lanes and those who vehemently opposed them, preferring just wide lanes. Both sides came off as extremists who refused to compromise. In the end, because the 'advocates' spent so much time bickering amongst themselves and could not compromise, the project had no bike lanes and instead of wide outside lanes, medians were installed with trees and shrubs (the beautification folks DID have their act together) that died and fell into disrepair within a year of planting.

The moral of the story - if you want to get something done, you have to have the support of people and organizations that have proven voting power, speak with a unified voice, and are willing to compromise and accept long term solutions rather than getting everything they want in the short term. In short you gotta have your ducks in line and the right people/groups behind you....which means sometimes you gotta give them something in return for their support.

As much as I pick on HH, having a debate in here with him and everyone else can only help you to get your ducks in line...but the political part, building consensus and gathering support, is something you can only do there, on the ground. Now, to be brutally honest...I think your skills in that area need improvement - a diplomat you are not You tend to give the perception that you are tooting your own horn and that people who do not agree with you are the enemy. That doesn't cut it when you are trying to get people to do something that might be easier for them not to bother with. You gotta make it easier to do what you want than not to, you gotta stroke em and cuddle em and treat em like they are your best friend.

You have to persuade the right people to support what you want done, not by trying to sell them on what YOU believe, but by showing them how it meets THEIR wants, needs and goals, even leading them to think some things are their own ideas, rather than yours, allowing them to take credit, whether it is due or not, and giving up non-core pieces of your plan as trade-offs to help them soothe the interests of their own constituencies. Indeed, sometimes it's better to let others, with more power, skill and influence, take the lead to push the project through and take the credit, even if you are still the one doing all the grunt work. Sometimes you get more done by pushing and prodding behind the scenes rather than trying to take the lead and make your face the public face. If you want credit, you're going to be disappointed...credit goes to those pretty folks with the smiles and charisma that makes people like them and want to follow them. Like me, you ain't one of those people, so you gotta be the one who pulls their strings behind the scenes and get your satisfaction from seeing the job get done.

You know me, I don't pull any punches, I call em like I see em, so don't get offended by me telling you straight. Others will have other advice...look at what they are saying, rather than how they say it and how it affects your ego. You think ILTB and me always got along? Ha, we used to tear each other apart until we got past the egos and saw that we agreed more than we disagreed and were spending more time attacking each other rather than listening to what the other was saying. Sometimes you gotta look past how something is said to understand what is being said.

In other words you're saying in part I gotta kiss ass to get what I need done, done? Sorry I don't do that, My own personal ethics & values will not allow me to be a kiss ass. I will leave up to other like minded folks. Meaning others in the Siouxland Trails Foundation, or STF, there are a few who have no problem doing that & they know I do.

You're also saying I need to be a salesman. That game I am really good at, I do it for a living. Basically I tell a customer what they need based on what they voluntarily tell me by answering questions I ask, then I say ok, let's make this happen & I usually get the sale.

Thankfully I do have the support of the STF & at least have the ear of the Parks & Rec. Dept. & it would probably not be too much of a stretch to gain the attention of other city depts. Or for the STF board, these are the fine folks who tend to be the ass kissers, to do so. As you may have noticed I am not very tactfull when it comes to this, it is not a strong suit anyway. I present the ideas & why I think it should be done, then others take it from there. One differance though, compared to last year is I now follow up on the progress on what is being done. Last year I did not do that & some things fell by the wayside. there is also such a thing as too much ass kissing & compromise as what happened with the bridge project. I will now make sure I am involved to try to ensure this does not happen again.
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Old 02-07-07, 12:15 AM
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Here is what I have done so far regarding the 3 things I am currently focusing on.

First I asked what will it take to adopt a Complete Streets Policy. What more needs to be done? I asked if we need to bring the MPO, the city council, the parks & rec. dept. & the STF together for a sit down to discuss this & make it happen. I did not state the info. is not doing any good sitting in a file somewhere. I controlled myself in this respect, though I wanted to say it. I am awaiting an answer on what more needs to be done to adopt a Complete Streets Policy. I hope it is being researched & worked on & I will follow up on it.

Second I asked if we are starting with Unity Elementary School regarding a Safe Routes To School & will work our way from there. I mentioned it is a good idea to start with one, see how well it works & then go from there. I also advised that I will be contacting the Catholic Diocese & other private schools to bring this idea to their attention as well.

Finally I advised that I think Riveside Blvd should be put on a road diet & suggested how easy it is to do so & what can be done regarding this & that if does not work it can easily be changed back. I await a response to that. Again I will follow up with this. I did cite personal experiences & examples for myself & others in STF I have ridden bike with on R'side Blvd as part of the reasons for putting it on a diet. But I did not let personal emotions cloud my judgement on this, no matter how passionate I may feel about it.

Leaving personal emotions out of the equation is sometimes difficult to do & I have to bite my tongue at times.
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Old 02-07-07, 12:24 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
HH, looking at the issues N_C faces in Iowa is not viewable as a problem/solution equasion. it is a quality issue.


quality of life, quality of community. quality of riding.

Problem/solution is dichotomous and does NOT address what N_C is looking at. Status Quo versus improvements in quality of non motorized transportation infrastructure, N_C.

Don't listen to HH, he's the anti-cyclist. he's just mining for information to use against community bicycling advocacy, bro.
A better qualtiy of life is exactly what myself & STF are trying to accomplish here.

What has happened is Sioux City has suffered economically for a long time. Now things are really turning around. There are new businesses moving in, new shopping facilties being constructed, new housing being built, etc. Unfortunatley though the Parks & Rec. has been left by the way side during all of this when it should have been involved & included in the construction process. Who knows? Maybe a new city park could have & could still be added as a result. Along with that are the bicycle facilities as well. Now it seems we need to play catch up to make sure bike facilities are at least required to be considered when the existing projects continue & new projects are started.
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Old 02-07-07, 05:24 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by N_C
In other words you're saying in part I gotta kiss ass to get what I need done, done? Sorry I don't do that, My own personal ethics & values will not allow me to be a kiss ass.
Chipcom,
This is the response to your well thought out and sincere recommendations. Quite the diplomat, eh?

My recommendation to you - don't waste time on this "ethical" hard case.
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Old 02-07-07, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Wouldn't that be a loaded Helmet Head poll on "taking a more proactive approach" with a leading question and skewed anwsers, Derath?

Sorry Bek, but you missed the joke. But that is ok, you weren't around earlier to know what I was talking about.

Shame too, cause it was pretty funny.

-D
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Old 02-07-07, 07:05 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by N_C
In other words you're saying in part I gotta kiss ass to get what I need done, done? Sorry I don't do that, My own personal ethics & values will not allow me to be a kiss ass. I will leave up to other like minded folks. Meaning others in the Siouxland Trails Foundation, or STF, there are a few who have no problem doing that & they know I do.

You're also saying I need to be a salesman. That game I am really good at, I do it for a living. Basically I tell a customer what they need based on what they voluntarily tell me by answering questions I ask, then I say ok, let's make this happen & I usually get the sale.
There is a difference between kissing butt and stroking ego...as a salesman you should know this, if you want to participate in the political arena, it's a requirement.
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Old 02-07-07, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
There is a difference between kissing butt and stroking ego...as a salesman you should know this, if you want to participate in the political arena, it's a requirement.
You see kissing butt & stroking ego as 2 differant things, I see it as the same. Kind of a you say tomato & I say tamato, that's fine. As a salesman I do know this, but I try not to do it. Do I lose sales as a result? Yes. Am I one of the top sales people in my office? No. Because I personally think it is deaming to stroke ego's or kiss butt I am not as an aggressive salesman as I could be.

I am however very good at doing research, presenting the ideas & letting others stroke the ego's & kiss butts. I don't mind if those that do the stroking & kissing take the credit for it. I don't need recognition to feel good about doing something like this. I personally think that those that stroke & kiss need to feel good by taking the credit because maybe they feel uncomfortable with kissing & stroking in the first place. So they need something to offset it, ie taking credit, I don't have a problem with that.

Because I would rather not play in the political arena I'll stick with the researching & presenting of ideas end of it.

BTW, no offense meant with my response to yours when I said "you're saying I need to kiss ass". Like you I call it as I see it & try not to pull punches.
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Old 02-07-07, 09:58 AM
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you cannot negotiate a weak position with strongarm tactics, N_C.

You need to sell the others on the sundry advantages 'bikethink' will bring your community.
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Old 02-07-07, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
you cannot negotiate a weak position with strongarm tactics, N_C.

You need to sell the others on the sundry advantages 'bikethink' will bring your community.
Correct. That is why I am better at doing the research, presenting it to the appropriate people & letting them do the stroking & kissing in the political arena. It is also why the research I do needs to be the correct research & accurate. There is such a thing as too much research though. But I have yet to have that happen.
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Old 02-07-07, 10:06 AM
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"bikethink" can and will have positive effects on sioux city, N_C.

Help make it happen!!!! you da man...
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Old 02-07-07, 10:10 AM
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Well do as you please, but remember that you gotta convince them butt-kissers to go out and do their butt-kissing for what YOU want them to be kissing butt for...rather than what someone else, maybe those opposed to your idea, ARE kissing THEIR butts for.

Look at it this way...which is more important, the issue you are trying to advance, or your own pride and vanity? Nobody's saying to compromise core principles, just to be nice and make people feel good about themselves. Another rule of getting things done....you gotta check your ego at the door.
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Old 02-07-07, 11:22 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
HH, looking at the issues N_C faces in Iowa is not viewable as a problem/solution equasion. it is a quality issue.


quality of life, quality of community. quality of riding.

Problem/solution is dichotomous and does NOT address what N_C is looking at. Status Quo versus improvements in quality of non motorized transportation infrastructure, N_C.

Don't listen to HH, he's the anti-cyclist. he's just mining for information to use against community bicycling advocacy, bro.
Everything can be viewed as a problem/solution.

For example, making chocolate chip cookies solves the problem of a desire for something warm, crispy, sweet and chocolaty being unfulfilled.

"Quality issues" are about the problem of the level of quality of something being too low. Such a problem needs to be described in terms of what it is that has a quality level that is too low, what that level is currently, explaining the ramifications of that quality being as low as it is, what benefits there would be from higher quality, what that higher level should be, and why.

In this case, understanding the problem(s) that you (N_C) want solved is only the first step.
Understanding the problem(s) that others want solved is also essential.
Ultimately, you want to identify and propose solutions that solve their problems as well as yours, with emphasis on how they solve their problems (assuming they could care less about your problems, unless they happen to be the same).

It's not about "kissing butt". It's about working together with those whose cooperation you require to solve your problems.

Thinking in terms of problem(s)/solution(s) is essential to accomplishing that.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 02-08-07 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 02-08-07, 01:37 AM
  #50  
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Here is the email I sent to the STF secretary & president & the parks & rec. director of Sioux City:

****,

Will you please send this to everyone in the foundation?

This is a trailer to a 90 min. video called Contested Streets. While Sioux City does not have as bad of a problem with congestion as other larger cities the problem is still there, just on a smaller scale, that could become larger as the city grows. We need to think of ways to reclaim our public spaces in this community, beyond what we are already doing.

Please watch the short trailer & I will do what I can to obtain the full version of the video. The trailer shows some really great ideas of what has happened in other cites around the world that Sioux City should use as a model.

I think part of this includes having a Complete Streets Policy & Safe Routes to School for all of the schools in Sioux City, both public & private. If we work on melding together Complete Streets, Safe Routes to School & reclaiming the public spaces this community will be a whole lot better for it. We need to adopt a new perspective & get rid of the old traditional way of thinking when it comes to infrastructure, like roadway construction. So what do you say? let's think about ways to do this using the info. in the web sites below.

We have made a good start on some of these things. But so much more needs to be done. Even if it is utilizing ourselves as a think-tank just to come up with ideas for a later time. But there are things that should be done right away. The first of which is a Complete Streets Policy.

So help me out here. Let's do what we can to make this happen. Who's on board?

Here are the links to the information:

https://www.contestedstreets.com/
https://www.iowabikes.com/
https://www.dot.state.ia.us/saferoutes/
https://www.completestreets.org/
https://www.thunderheadalliance.org/index.asp

Thank you.

John

What do you think? I did the research & presented the ideas. Didn't really stroke any ego's or kiss butt, didn't have to. That is up to others to get these ideas implemented. I hope it happens.

One other thing I have heard & get the feeling there are those in the foundation who think our focus should be on the trails only & not other facilties. At times this attitude has almost made me want to stop my efforts. So far there has not been any in-fighting over the issue & I hope there isn't any.
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