3/15/2007 - Please read before posting in any A&S thread!
#151
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
In fact, it is because VC is "all about operating a bike in a vehicular manner...", and bike lanes are not, that that part of the controversy exists.
But bike lanes are not contrary to vehicular behavior because they are segregationary. In general, the fundamental idea of bike lanes - that vehicle type, and not vehicle-independent factors like speed, destination, special function (public bus, taxi) and size should determine where a given vehicle is operated is contrary to the basic rules of vehicular behavior. More specifically, bike lanes are contrary to vehicular behavior because they encourage not only bike lane users to violate basic principles of vehicular traffic behavior like destination and speed positioning, but they discourage non-bike lane users to violate them too. Do I really need to cite all the examples? We've been over this thousands of times. At least at any intersection or junction without a dedicated right turn lane, a bike lane necessarily guides through cyclists to go straight from positions that are to the right of where the bike lane stripe guides right turning motorists to drive, in violation of the destination positioning principle. When motor traffic slows, bike lanes encourage cyclists to pass motorists on the right (violating speed positioning).
That's why VC advocates point out that bike lanes inhibit cyclists from thinking, feeling and operating vehicularly, and why the VC opposition to bike lanes is also "all about operating a bike in a vehicular manner..."
P.S.
I hereby assert that John Forester is a human, just to emphasize that we're not fighting about whether JF is a god or demon.
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#153
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#155
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To me one of the sadist statements made by JF was that there are only 3-4 true VC on the forum. I'm sorry but there is an aspect/group that is out to make VC a cult of personality.
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To me, a cult of personality is a group of people who are drawn by a leader's personality, rather than by ideas, or the ideas a leader happens to espouse.
For example, there it has been argued that much of the Obama campaign can be characterized as a cult of personality because his campaign is all about him, and very little about substance. Recently Chris Matthews had an Obama supporter/rep on Hardball who could not name a single Obama achievement.
In contrast, the Ron Paul campaign has been characterized as a cult of ideas.
To me, the whole VC advocacy thing seems to be much more about ideas. No offense to JF, but, in fact, I don't know of a single VC advocate who is drawn to Forester himself due to Forester's personality or charisma. Most VC advocates have not even met him in person.
#157
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The cult of personality is most evident on the ChainGuard forum and with Forester only accepting 3-4 of us here. There are a large number of VCers who are not part of this cult of personality but that does not mean that a VC cult of personality does not exist.
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Personality in cult of personality refers to the personality of the alleged leader of an alleged cult.
It's not what Jim Jones did that made Jonestown a cult of personality; it's what his followers did that made it that (including follow him to Guana and drink the Koolaid).
It's not what Obama does that makes the Obama campaign a cult of personality, it's that many of his followers can't articulate a coherent reason he would make a good president.
So what is it on ChainGuard that is evidence of a cult of personality there?
How is Forester saying that he thinks only 3 or 4 of the regulars on this forum seem to be vehicular cyclists evidence of a cult of personality?
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-03-08 at 01:32 PM.
#159
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Can you elaborate on this at all? After all, a large number of VCers who are not part of a cult of personality does not mean that a VC cult of personality does exist either.
Personality in cult of personality refers to the personality of the alleged leader of an alleged cult.
It's not what Jim Jones did that made Jonestown a cult of personality; it's what his followers did that made it that (including follow him to Guana and drink the Koolaid).
Personality in cult of personality refers to the personality of the alleged leader of an alleged cult.
It's not what Jim Jones did that made Jonestown a cult of personality; it's what his followers did that made it that (including follow him to Guana and drink the Koolaid).
Lest you feel the need to start getting too political, remember you have been the main apologist for a candidate who is anti-Choice, is a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution and is a racist, named Ron Paul, who's another textbook example of CoP.
This is what you do Head, apparently hard-wired into you, whether it's Hitchens, Paul or Forester.
But I'm sure you're oblivious to this.
Besides, it seems like A&S should be for people learning to negotiate traffic, not people who have been cycling for years and/or people who no longer cycle arguing oddball hypothetical minutiae day in and day out. Part of the reason I never come here is that I know how to ride alongside cars, the other reason is some of the dumbass flaming that gets started by the VC acolytes. I go to PnR all the time, but I consider A&S to be mentally poisonous, so go figure.
This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.
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Sure, run with the joke to avoid the issue.
Lest you feel the need to start getting too political, remember you have been the main apologist for a candidate who is anti-Choice, is a doctor who doesn't believe in evolution and is a racist, named Ron Paul, who's another textbook example of CoP.
This is what you do Head, apparently hard-wired into you, whether it's Hitchens, Paul or Forester.
This is what you do Head, apparently hard-wired into you, whether it's Hitchens, Paul or Forester.
Well, you're the one who creates such a strong association with personalities (whether for or against), not me. If my citing the writings of the most prominent proponents of the ideas that I favor (Dawkins and Rand as well as Hitchens in the area of atheism/religion; Franklin and Hurst as well as Forester in the area of traffic cycling; von Mises, Hayek, Rand etc. as well as Ron Paul in the area of politics/economics) is somehow a criticism, please explain how it's about their personalities and not their ideas. You know, it's because I favor Paul's ideas to end the war, stop intervening in foreign affairs, drastically reduce the size of the federal government, get rid of the Federal Reserve (return to sound money), FCC, DofEd, etc., despite the possibility that he might be too accepting of racism (arguably making him a racist) that indicates my support for him is about ideas, and not personality.
The whole Clinton/Obama thing is all about personality. You can split a few hairs on their health care ideas, criticize Hillary for trying to be too nuanced and trust Bush regarding the Iraq War vote, and point out the perception benefits, internationally as well as domestically, with having a black president (but would you point that out if Powell or Rice was running?), but that's about it. The bulk of Obama support can basically be characterized by "just listen to his voice" and "I hate her". If that's not a cult of personality, I don't know what is.
On the other hand, when Fox decided not to invite Ron Paul to one of the debates, the Ron Paul supporters who started arguing for filing complaints with the FCC were reminded to not compromise principles, not even to defend Ron Paul.
Besides, it seems like A&S should be for people learning to negotiate traffic, not people who have been cycling for years and/or people who no longer cycle arguing oddball hypothetical minutiae day in and day out. Part of the reason I never come here is that I know how to ride alongside cars, the other reason is some of the dumbass flaming that gets started by the VC acolytes. I go to PnR all the time, but I consider A&S to be mentally poisonous, so go figure.
This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.
This subforum should be helping out new cyclists, not continuing to be such a shambling abomination as it is now.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-03-08 at 04:28 PM.
#161
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I think some if not many of us, including me, make an effort to help new cyclists with practical advice that most would agree with in our first responses. Then someone later will nitpick or try using the honest advice given in an effort to pigeon hole someone 'beliefs' or find a contradiction, a rare exception, etc. in effort to discredit them or just argue because they are the 'enemy'
#162
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Some anthropologists and sociologists studying cults have argued that no one has yet been able to define “cult” in a way that enables the term to identify only groups that have been identified as problematic.
One ideal that comes to mind is JF's pro-motoring stance and his disdain for what he calls "anti-motoring." His point on how that has anything to do with cyclists' safety or rights is lost on many except those in the cult of personality.
I'll interject here that while I will numerate several other thoughts they are not meant to be taken as a whole to qualify as a cult of personality as the cult can be quite nebulous and the attraction or mimicking of a exotic idea can have sub groups and/or overlapping groups.
On mimicking, there is something I find terribly off by a quick response of an insult or the accusation the lack of education to the original poster by JF and those of the cult of personality (like on ChainGurad.) There are many who are far more educated the JF and they don't hold his beliefs but he and his followers use this insult/not as educated as a short circuit to slam dunk arguments rather then use logic. (Sort of like; I am smarter then you but I can't explain why you are wrong.)
Another thing I find weird in cults is the the quick litmus test to determine if you are the enemy; you're not against bike lanes? Your going to burn in Hell. This point is not about pro/anti-bike lanes but that cults feel that there can only be one absolute truth and few are the faithful and that is stressed over the logic of the validity of their belief.
If you believe this you will: live forever/not die/be free from all illnesses/snake bites will not harm you/motorists will wave and give you the thumbs up when you take the lane and block their way. If you have seen the Tom Cruse religious commercial "When you drive past an accident, it’s not like anyone else; as you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you’re the only one that can really help…" Let's assume for now what Tom knows is really powerful but be real, if an an accident results in just cuts and bruises there are lots of people that can help, at least adequately. In the same way VC is a powerful tool but some take it over the top.
I also find it weird that JF choose to use a model for delivering his "enlightenment" that is very similar to the Scientology model. Maybe this is the best way to make sure people really know their stuff and are able to pass it forward or maybe there is the lack of trust that others will mess it up if their are not controls in place to keep the faith pure.
In summary in this post I am not trying to debate or make a point of the right or wrong of JF's beliefs but point out that I do have concerns on how those points are delivered. JF's ideas can be right or mostly right but carried to an extreme and depending on how they are delivered the result can be something very cult like.
PS. Sorry for the delay in responding but BF indexes sometimes goof up and I was not notified of additional responses on this thread.
#163
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Well I looked at Wikipedia for some sort of criteria for to use for "cult of personality" and that was useless so I looked up cult:
So we are sort of left to our own definitions so with any cult there are the ideas that make the cult distinctive and their is a cult leader who can make the cult distinctive through pontification of ideas. So it is a bit problematic to say what ideas exist separate of JF and which are due to JF being a charismatic leader. I think this is best done by looking at the main creed and see what is pontificated that does not exactly fit well within the main creed and by looking at other cults and drawing parallels.
One ideal that comes to mind is JF's pro-motoring stance and his disdain for what he calls "anti-motoring." His point on how that has anything to do with cyclists' safety or rights is lost on many except those in the cult of personality.
I'll interject here that while I will numerate several other thoughts they are not meant to be taken as a whole to qualify as a cult of personality as the cult can be quite nebulous and the attraction or mimicking of a exotic idea can have sub groups and/or overlapping groups.
On mimicking, there is something I find terribly off by a quick response of an insult or the accusation the lack of education to the original poster by JF and those of the cult of personality (like on ChainGurad.) There are many who are far more educated the JF and they don't hold his beliefs but he and his followers use this insult/not as educated as a short circuit to slam dunk arguments rather then use logic. (Sort of like; I am smarter then you but I can't explain why you are wrong.)
Another thing I find weird in cults is the the quick litmus test to determine if you are the enemy; you're not against bike lanes? Your going to burn in Hell. This point is not about pro/anti-bike lanes but that cults feel that there can only be one absolute truth and few are the faithful and that is stressed over the logic of the validity of their belief.
If you believe this you will: live forever/not die/be free from all illnesses/snake bites will not harm you/motorists will wave and give you the thumbs up when you take the lane and block their way. If you have seen the Tom Cruse religious commercial "When you drive past an accident, it’s not like anyone else; as you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you’re the only one that can really help…" Let's assume for now what Tom knows is really powerful but be real, if an an accident results in just cuts and bruises there are lots of people that can help, at least adequately. In the same way VC is a powerful tool but some take it over the top.
I also find it weird that JF choose to use a model for delivering his "enlightenment" that is very similar to the Scientology model. Maybe this is the best way to make sure people really know their stuff and are able to pass it forward or maybe there is the lack of trust that others will mess it up if their are not controls in place to keep the faith pure.
In summary in this post I am not trying to debate or make a point of the right or wrong of JF's beliefs but point out that I do have concerns on how those points are delivered. JF's ideas can be right or mostly right but carried to an extreme and depending on how they are delivered the result can be something very cult like.
PS. Sorry for the delay in responding but BF indexes sometimes goof up and I was not notified of additional responses on this thread.
So we are sort of left to our own definitions so with any cult there are the ideas that make the cult distinctive and their is a cult leader who can make the cult distinctive through pontification of ideas. So it is a bit problematic to say what ideas exist separate of JF and which are due to JF being a charismatic leader. I think this is best done by looking at the main creed and see what is pontificated that does not exactly fit well within the main creed and by looking at other cults and drawing parallels.
One ideal that comes to mind is JF's pro-motoring stance and his disdain for what he calls "anti-motoring." His point on how that has anything to do with cyclists' safety or rights is lost on many except those in the cult of personality.
I'll interject here that while I will numerate several other thoughts they are not meant to be taken as a whole to qualify as a cult of personality as the cult can be quite nebulous and the attraction or mimicking of a exotic idea can have sub groups and/or overlapping groups.
On mimicking, there is something I find terribly off by a quick response of an insult or the accusation the lack of education to the original poster by JF and those of the cult of personality (like on ChainGurad.) There are many who are far more educated the JF and they don't hold his beliefs but he and his followers use this insult/not as educated as a short circuit to slam dunk arguments rather then use logic. (Sort of like; I am smarter then you but I can't explain why you are wrong.)
Another thing I find weird in cults is the the quick litmus test to determine if you are the enemy; you're not against bike lanes? Your going to burn in Hell. This point is not about pro/anti-bike lanes but that cults feel that there can only be one absolute truth and few are the faithful and that is stressed over the logic of the validity of their belief.
If you believe this you will: live forever/not die/be free from all illnesses/snake bites will not harm you/motorists will wave and give you the thumbs up when you take the lane and block their way. If you have seen the Tom Cruse religious commercial "When you drive past an accident, it’s not like anyone else; as you drive past, you know you have to do something about it, because you know you’re the only one that can really help…" Let's assume for now what Tom knows is really powerful but be real, if an an accident results in just cuts and bruises there are lots of people that can help, at least adequately. In the same way VC is a powerful tool but some take it over the top.
I also find it weird that JF choose to use a model for delivering his "enlightenment" that is very similar to the Scientology model. Maybe this is the best way to make sure people really know their stuff and are able to pass it forward or maybe there is the lack of trust that others will mess it up if their are not controls in place to keep the faith pure.
In summary in this post I am not trying to debate or make a point of the right or wrong of JF's beliefs but point out that I do have concerns on how those points are delivered. JF's ideas can be right or mostly right but carried to an extreme and depending on how they are delivered the result can be something very cult like.
PS. Sorry for the delay in responding but BF indexes sometimes goof up and I was not notified of additional responses on this thread.
It's like saying Richard Dawkin's ideas are probably wrong because there is a richarddawkins.net website with a forum on which his fans commune in a cult-like manner.
If it's true that only VC advocates can understand the relevance of JF's points about anti-motoring to cycling advocacy and safety, I don't know how to help you. I can only say that "it goes to motive", and clearly plays a role to varying degrees in the thoughts and beliefs of many bicycling advocates. What also varies is to what extent the anti-motoring sentiments cloud and conflict with pure pro-bicycling sentiments, but you can find many examples every day on this forum where the higher priority is obviously anti-motorist, and not pro-cyclist. I suppose it's true that many bicycling advocates see no conflict between the two, and to them they are one and the same. Anything that is anti-motoring is pro-bicycling and vice-versa. But Forester has pointed out that there is conflict in certain contexts, and that the true cycling advocates are those that side with the pro-cycling side rather than the anti-motoring side in these situations, that's all.
But I too have concerns with how many of the VC points are delivered, including concerns with how I deliver them myself. Something I'm constantly working on...
#164
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Well, by such a broad non-definition, any time anyone proposes change that is revolutionary and/or controversial in some manner, and publishes materials about these ideas that others find convincing, cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable. And arguments to discount these ideas based on the inevitable cult-like characteristics are probably inevitable too. But such arguments are not very sound.
Me: Hi! I'm cycling advocate and I am car free.
Cult of personality: You anti-motoring bike lane advocates are all the same, you are sending cycling into the dark ages with your superstitions about rear-end collisions and the promotion of childish bike riding.
Me: WTF is your problem??? How does my transportation mode of choice dictate all that? In order to be a "true" cycling advocate one must drive a car a lot and a ride a bike very little?
There is something non-congruent in (some of) the deliveries. There is the quick litmus test to arrive to the conclusion that you are one of the non-believers and rather then try and win them over, berate them for all their "evil" doings and make them repent of their sins. I see a cult of personality more adapt at "proving" an unbeliever then proving their belief system. There is also some sort of "hate" undercurrent or blaming someone else for problems that is also present in this type of cult. If you try and change something and you fail, that's your failing not someone else's fault but a cult of personality will blame someone else for their failing. "It is the bike lane advocates fault for our current conditions."
I don't always agree with you but you are a good egg.
#165
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Human Car - now I think I understand your point. Right or wrong, some of the VC message is conveyed in a manner that makes VC seem cult-like, and that hinders effective conveyance of the message. I can agree with that.
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Perhaps you're using "cult of personality" differently than what I understand it to mean.
To me, a cult of personality is a group of people who are drawn by a leader's personality, rather than by ideas, or the ideas a leader happens to espouse.
For example, there it has been argued that much of the Obama campaign can be characterized as a cult of personality because his campaign is all about him, and very little about substance. Recently Chris Matthews had an Obama supporter/rep on Hardball who could not name a single Obama achievement.
In contrast, the Ron Paul campaign has been characterized as a cult of ideas.
To me, the whole VC advocacy thing seems to be much more about ideas. No offense to JF, but, in fact, I don't know of a single VC advocate who is drawn to Forester himself due to Forester's personality or charisma. Most VC advocates have not even met him in person.
To me, a cult of personality is a group of people who are drawn by a leader's personality, rather than by ideas, or the ideas a leader happens to espouse.
For example, there it has been argued that much of the Obama campaign can be characterized as a cult of personality because his campaign is all about him, and very little about substance. Recently Chris Matthews had an Obama supporter/rep on Hardball who could not name a single Obama achievement.
In contrast, the Ron Paul campaign has been characterized as a cult of ideas.
To me, the whole VC advocacy thing seems to be much more about ideas. No offense to JF, but, in fact, I don't know of a single VC advocate who is drawn to Forester himself due to Forester's personality or charisma. Most VC advocates have not even met him in person.
#169
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I think some if not many of us, including me, make an effort to help new cyclists with practical advice that most would agree with in our first responses. Then someone later will nitpick or try using the honest advice given in an effort to pigeon hole someone 'beliefs' or find a contradiction, a rare exception, etc. in effort to discredit them or just argue because they are the 'enemy'
In the end, the VC subforum seems to have worked. VC ideas (and anti-VC ideas and non-VC ideas) are clearly still welcome in the main A&S forum, but arguments have to move to the subforum when they hit that endless loop.
Nice work mods!
#170
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I won't take any credit, as I'm sure the idea came from members.
#171
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The idea was OK, but implementation was key. Based on your posts, it's clear which side of the VC debate you and donnamb are on, but VC ideas flow freely in the main A&S section. Only The Endless Loop gets moved to the subforum doghouse. That helps keep all sides on their best behavior in A&S, and lets people vent in the subforum.
#172
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A&S has turned into the new P&R, and the moderation queue is being overrun by complaints. If you cannot refrain from personal attacks, petty arguments, and constant bickering over cycling technique, IT WILL BE CLOSED.
Yes, if you cannot respect each other, the entire A&S forum will be shut down so you can all go out for some fresh air and cool off a bit.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Yes, if you cannot respect each other, the entire A&S forum will be shut down so you can all go out for some fresh air and cool off a bit.
Thank you for your cooperation.
I had not been to Bike Forums in quite some time. Have things deteriated that bad since I have been gone? Have you all been misbehaving?
If you think this is bad, you should visit the London Guardian Talk Boards. Now, that gets really nasty!
#173
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What are you guys arguing about? Cyclists riding and behaving like cars on the road? Here in Bend, cyclists (not cruiser bike riders or teens on BMX's) ride in the road and behave like cars. It seems to be working pretty well so long as they remain alert, wear proper cycling attire (bright colors, lights, etc. - Not spandex), wear their helmets, and don't take driver courtesy for granted. Roundabouts and turn lanes seriously confuse bike lane operations, and most cyclists I have spoken with prefer to be in front of the car where they remain highly visible than off on the passenger side barely getting noticed. I tend to agree with them, so long as my speed isn't hindering motorists from driving at safe and reasonable speeds.
We benefit in Bend, as cyclists, from having no freeway and very little highway traffic at all due to our through-town-traffic accomodating parkway. This helps greatly with keeping us from having to worry about HOV lanes and issues with freeway riding, highway traffic, on and off-ramp issues, etc. However, Bend is also a road riding mecca, and many local cyclists spend more time riding centuries than commuting to and from work or the bank or market. So our perception of VC is a bit skewed.
Those are my two cents on the concept of Vehicular Cycling. Hope everyone remembers that these forums work best when they inform, educate and share.
We benefit in Bend, as cyclists, from having no freeway and very little highway traffic at all due to our through-town-traffic accomodating parkway. This helps greatly with keeping us from having to worry about HOV lanes and issues with freeway riding, highway traffic, on and off-ramp issues, etc. However, Bend is also a road riding mecca, and many local cyclists spend more time riding centuries than commuting to and from work or the bank or market. So our perception of VC is a bit skewed.
Those are my two cents on the concept of Vehicular Cycling. Hope everyone remembers that these forums work best when they inform, educate and share.
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3/15/2007 Please read before posting in any A thread
Dear Members,
Please only post links to lab home pages and other web sites that provide useful information such as methods, protocols, tools, etc.
Any ad will be deleted
Please only post links to lab home pages and other web sites that provide useful information such as methods, protocols, tools, etc.
Any ad will be deleted
#175
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