Is it possible for us to all get along and advocate for cyclists?
03-20-07, 06:31 PM
#26
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In the real world, yes. On an Internet forum, no.
03-20-07, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
Of course I won't work for what you imagine to be "the greater good" when I believe both that it is not and that it is against my interests (and yours). That would be truly irrational.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
03-20-07, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
I think every word I've posted here is exactly on-topic. Perhaps you believe it is off-topic to answer the OP in the negative?
you're free to say, "no we can't." do so, and move on; there are others of us who disagree, and might actually come together and make a step in the right direction, whatever it may be.
03-20-07, 07:01 PM
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oh, yeah, I forgot about the Chip comment.
Kal, that's going on your permanent record!
and you're banned from Delta House.
Kal, that's going on your permanent record!
and you're banned from Delta House.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
03-20-07, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
When will you be adopting this practice yourself, Chip?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
Last edited by chipcom; 03-20-07 at 07:10 PM.
03-20-07, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Chip, you've had some governing experience, I think you should take a stab at drafting a resolution, complete with a section of whereas's and therefore be it resolved's, that spells out the agreements and disagreements between the VCers and the rest of us, and which concludes with some concrete resolutions in which we can all agree to what we have in common and gives some direction towards addressing what we still don't know and/or disagree on. Then maybe we can put all this idiocy to rest and move on in a positive fashion.
"Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a busboy!"
I don't think any resolution of that type would have much value. I think a commitment to compromise and not get baited into BS, followed by discussion of a specfic issue of contention, might be more appropriate and would spare us all my long-winded oration.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
You see my commitment...where is yours?
I will continue to be as respectful as I can, while arguing vigorously the points and issues I consider important. I will also continue to point out, and object to, childish nastiness.
03-20-07, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
Chip's "olive branch" will be meaningful when his nasty, assaultive behavior changes. Not before.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
I think you're misjudging Chip, and failing to account for your own lousy attitude; anyway, DJ's comment was aimed at me, not Chip; Chip is being good with the olive branch.
Originally Posted by chipcom
Lord knows most of us, especially me, seem to not be able to just ignore the BS and continue with an otherwise productive discussion.
03-20-07, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
I have never engaged in the kind of angry, insulting behavior I've complained about, not even in my most frustrated responses to vicious attacks.
I will continue to be as respectful as I can, while arguing vigorously the points and issues I consider important. I will also continue to point out, and object to, childish nastiness.
I will continue to be as respectful as I can, while arguing vigorously the points and issues I consider important. I will also continue to point out, and object to, childish nastiness.
Originally Posted by kalliergo
Of course I won't work for what you imagine to be "the greater good" when I believe both that it is not and that it is against my interests (and yours). That would be truly irrational.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by kalliergo
Of course I won't work for what you imagine to be "the greater good" when I believe both that it is not and that it is against my interests (and yours). That would be truly irrational.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
I'll continue to work vigorously to oppose measures I believe to be ill-conceived.
03-20-07, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I think you're misjudging Chip, and perhaps yourself.
Until Chipcom stops seeing the VC perspective as "BS", and you recognize him referring to it as "BS" is not "being good with the olive branch", a future of getting along does not look good.
Until Chipcom stops seeing the VC perspective as "BS", and you recognize him referring to it as "BS" is not "being good with the olive branch", a future of getting along does not look good.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:29 PM
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Arrogance and self-assured self-righteousness seems to be the commonality amongst all the VC proponents. Perhaps that's the only thing that keeps these guys going (and it's always guys, I have yet to see one woman advocate for VC). I will continue to mock it whenever and wherever I see it; it won't always be pretty, and sometimes it will even be childish.
03-20-07, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
In the real world, yes. On an Internet forum, no.
03-20-07, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
There is one firm answer to the OP's question. No surprise.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:32 PM
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You guys are falling into the same old trap. You're letting people bait you into the same old BS. Don't go into the light, Carol Anne!
For the benefit of Diane and others, this commitment is not trying to bind you from doing whatever the heck you want in other threads, but in the threads designed to look for compromise, it's going to be a requirement to participate. No tickee, no washee in those threads. If it carries over to others, all the better (I'm sure Joe and the mods will appreciate it), but nobody is trying to run your life outside of a few selected threads...kinda like we tried for AS.
For the benefit of Diane and others, this commitment is not trying to bind you from doing whatever the heck you want in other threads, but in the threads designed to look for compromise, it's going to be a requirement to participate. No tickee, no washee in those threads. If it carries over to others, all the better (I'm sure Joe and the mods will appreciate it), but nobody is trying to run your life outside of a few selected threads...kinda like we tried for AS.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:46 PM
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Not sure that I got your 'loyalty oath' in the vault yet, Randy. 
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 07:55 PM
#44
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Sorry I didn't realize this thread was about all of us trying to get along and advocate for cyclists. I find it hard to keep up with all that's actually said lately.
I still don't think it's possible to get along and advocate given the venue (Internet forum) and the people involved. I do know that in my real world, there are people among the Bicycle Coalition who are John Forester/John Allen VC cyclists, but when we get together for meetings those people don't argue like people do here. I don't know why that is, but maybe they are smarter than the Internet variety of JF/JA acolytes.
In any case, I put K on ignore one day after he joined this forum. As soon as I realized what he was all about. Sock-puppet nasty alter-ego of HH. I recommend it.
I still don't think it's possible to get along and advocate given the venue (Internet forum) and the people involved. I do know that in my real world, there are people among the Bicycle Coalition who are John Forester/John Allen VC cyclists, but when we get together for meetings those people don't argue like people do here. I don't know why that is, but maybe they are smarter than the Internet variety of JF/JA acolytes.
In any case, I put K on ignore one day after he joined this forum. As soon as I realized what he was all about. Sock-puppet nasty alter-ego of HH. I recommend it.
03-20-07, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rando
Mkay, seems like there's two definite "no" votes, one from HH, one from Kal.
thanks for your input, guys.
thanks for your input, guys.
Originally Posted by chipcom
The BS is not vehicular cycling...the BS is what threads turn into that we are GOING to avoid.
We have you down as a NO as wanting to participate and make the same commitment that I have. Would you like to take this opportunity to restate your position?
But no one except for Kal has even addressed that post, much less explained how it might be flawed.
03-20-07, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Advocating for more cyclists is also a relatively low priority, particularly considering that more cyclists probably means more cyclists doing stupid stuff out there, and making acceptance of cyclists on roadways less tolerable for many, and seem more dangerous that it is.
03-20-07, 08:03 PM
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HH, refer to post number 6 and let us know if you are in or out. Thanks.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
03-20-07, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
(and it's always guys, I have yet to see one woman advocate for VC).
03-20-07, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Not sure that I got your 'loyalty oath' in the vault yet, Randy.
03-20-07, 08:08 PM
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Advocating for more cyclists is the only reason to advocate for cycling, in my opinion. Otherwise it's just an act of self-gratification.
