rando

Glad you're OK.

genec

Somehow the education camp feels that cyclists on the road will "educate" motorists.

Of course they never looked at the other side of the equation... that motorists would try to re-educate cyclists while using both mass and power... and that most cyclists would react by cowering at the curb, thus reinforcing the motorists, and pretty much wiping out the few hours of "evangelical" education.

Oh sure there are a few LCIs and Alpha dog cyclists that will stand their ground, but they are in the minority, as are trained cyclists in general... so motorists generally win and continue their rein.

Unless motorists are properly informed and the laws are enforced... motorists will do what they can get away with. (always have and always will)

sbhikes

Just out of curiosity, are the sharrows painted way out in the lane? We have one road with sharrows out here and the sharrows are way out in the lane much further than I would normally want to ride.

Anyway, that driver sounds like a maniac. Swerving to your right into the shoulder. What an ass. I hope he punctured his tires on the pine needles or glass over there.

flipped4bikes

Actually, I try to smile and wave on my bike. Until some cager f***s with me.

andrelam

We had something similarry dumb arguements when a local road that has lots of restaurants was being changed from 4 to 2 lanes with a turning lane. The lanes were extreamly right and the drivers in the right had lanes were were 100% in the "door zone"... funny how even people in cars found it uncomfortable to ride in that lane and most move naturally to the left encroaching on the left lane traffic. The local merchants were up in arms over the road change. Once done, the road is much calmer and everyone LOVES the results. I think this just shows that people in general are affraid of change. I the average motorist freaks when there are car lane changes... adding bike lanes... those must be from Mars or something.

Happy riding,
André

The Human Car

Remember if they honk they see you… in their target sight.

Glad to hear you are ok.

invisiblehand

I never understood the VC argument as an "absolute truth". Given that we are talking about populations and a large number of trials/observations, the discussions usually revolve around probabilities and likelihoods. Moreover, I have no memory of someone writing that public education or an awareness program would produce no positive results or is completely unnecessary.

Then again, we know how these threads grow ...

We all understand that there are some lunatics out there--some more crazy than others--but your unfortunate incident is an extreme event.

EDIT: Now that I think about it some more, perhaps "necessary" is a key word in the discussion. So my earlier statement might be wrong ... memory is still fuzzy. However, I find it hard to believe that there would be strong opposition to driver education and public awareness programs.

Bruce_B

They won't care. For most motorists, anything in their way is a problem and they don't know or care what the laws are. They just want to get around whatever it is as fast as possible. And the longer it takes the madder and more reckless they get.

genec

True. But in the case of most other vehicles, there is not the vulnerability that cyclists have, to idiot mistakes.

Twice this morning I saw drivers either making turns around other vehicles that were "not moving fast enough" in the mind of these irate motorists. One was a motorist making a right turn from the center lane around a bus that was on the right; the bus was just starting to move, but the motorist was too impatient to check or wait for that nonsense.

The other incident involved a motorist making a left around a large step/delivery van from a middle lane. The light had just turned green, but the van was taking a moment to move, so the auto driver just whipped around and made the left turn, forcing the van to suddenly slam to a halt again, stopping the motorists behind the van... so the one selfish motorist could get their way.

Helmet Head

Clearly this guy was way out of line, but there are ways to mitigate risk in situations like this, and ways to antagonize the JAMS. It started like this:
What did you do at that point, Beck? Smile, wave and nod? Flip him off? Ignore him?

Helmet Head

And you reach this conclusions based on having one relatively rare exception incident?

Helmet Head

I think you got that right, IH.

I don't oppose driver education or public awareness programs. What I oppose is any significant amount of very limited cycling advocacy resources devoted to these causes, because I believe these finite resources would be much better spent on other fronts, like improving cyclist detection at traffic signals, and cyclist education (and publicizing the need for it).

genec

Now according to your past responses HH, you would have ignored him. Probably not even heard the honk.

So let's see what Bek did that was different from what you would have done.

For the record, in such a case like this, if I could have a moment to talk to a motorist like this... I'd give him a card with the laws that apply to cyclists.

CB HI

VCers have never opposed motorist education. We have simply said our own efforts have a greater effect if spend educating cyclist. Some VCers have even worked on handouts for motorist, driver manual information and have pushed for cycling questions on drivers test. Bek has chosen to twist this position to deride VCers. Bek has often criticized cyclist education as some sort of wacko VC conspiracy.

Helmet Head

If the guy yelled and/or honked, then passed me, yeah, I would ignore him. If he remained behind me, i would not ignore him. Note that his first communication was not threatening, and it escalated from there. Of course, Beck did not have an obligation to try to defuse the situation, but I think I would have tried to do so.

randya

check the quotes by the police officers in this article

Helmet Head

A better answer is to say that a cyclist in a bike lane that is ending has the same rights and responsibilities as a driver in a regular traffic lane that is ending, and that requires him to merge with adjacent traffic. In particular, he must yield to them.

Thomasdregos

I'd have to say the above is split 50/50 from my limited riding, however, that is not important. I treat riders like I want to be treated, with respect and care. That is what is important. I cannot control what other drivers do, however, I can lead by example. Maybe some will follow; hopefully that will be one less of us at risk anywhere.

randya

Kruger demonstrates his rather complete ignorance of several critical sections of the law, ORS 814.420 and 814.430, the former when bike lanes are present and the latter when they are not. A key to cyclist safety are the exceptions to each of these sections, as codified into law. Kruger chose to completely ignore the exceptions and conveniently stated the general case only.

Helmet Head

Exactly. Lead by example. Act like a vehicle driver when riding your bike. You won't educate everyone, but maybe a few folks will be reached. The more cyclists that do that, the more educating of motorists we'll have.

But I think it's important to understand that the idea that we're not supposed to be "out there" is a widely held notion, and that good well-meaning people may think that way. Be understanding that they think they're being Good Samaritans when they honk and yell at us - from their perspective, they're teaching us an important lesson, a lesson that might save our lives. You don't have to agree with them to respect their right to be so mistaken in their beliefs. Do what you can to straighten them out, but don't be an ahole about it.

genec

I can agree with that. Especially the last sentence.

chipcom 

I need to come out there and teach you my cosmic, telepathy shiite, Bek, once I figure out how I do it myself.

HH, not making driver education one of your priorities is akin to not making firearm safety a priority, instead teaching victims how to dress gunshot wounds. IMO, the person operating the deadly weapon is the one most in need of education.

pj7

You realize you are taking a very basic media posting of this story at face value concerning the cronology of events and actual wording used right?
And to correct you, the first communication (if we believe the reporting to be 100% acurate which you have done) was "honks and cries", which can be taken as threatening or non-threatening. And we/you have no idea what took place between the innitial "honk" and the first phrase quoted (is it really a police report quote??) in the story. Only Bek knows that answer.

pj7

Can you show me the threads that he has done this in please?

derath

OMG this is probably one of the best, most thoughtful posts I have seen in A&S (you must be new )

I drive my car as well as bike in the same manner. And trust me that I have some great driving conditions (IT Consultant, dealing with the Balitmore/Washington DC, NoVA corridor). There are some a-hole drivers, and cyclists out there. I choose not to play their game.

Sorry Chipcom, but i think this is a flawed comparison. It would be closer to say it is like teaching gun safety to regular folk (cyclists) vs. law enforcement (drivers). The reason being that the second group already get education. Drivers already have to go through an education process to get a license. Nobody gets any training to ride a bicycle in traffic.

Now the problem here is that IMO driver certification in this country is borderline criminal. Drivers ed. is a joke, and pretty much any idiot with 2 brain cells can get a license. Heck my SCUBA certificatio was taken more seriously.

-D