Rich Clark

And what I'm saying, no offense intended, is "no sh*t, Sherlock!"

That's much of the essense of Effective Cycling right there. It's what experienced cyclists do by training and developed instinct.

Your "ABI" methodology is wonderfully scientific-sounding, but I challenge your contention that you don't feel threatened by them all, even the 10-foot ones. If you didn't, you wouldn't be trying to avoid them. Since it is impossible to be part of traffic without being passed much closer than that by a multitude of cars, it's pretty clear that you feel threatened by traffic as a class.

I don't suggest that there's no threat. Everyone out there -- drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists alike -- are assuming risks when they hit the road. And I'm not interested in re-opening the "who's at biggest risk?" can of worms. Worms and statistics are both slippery and don't die when you cut 'em in half.

Rather, I'm contending that "fear is the mind-killer" as Frank Herbert had it. If you ride scared, you'll get hurt sooner rather than later, because you've become unpredictable to other road users. You'll change positions when there's no reason (apparent to others) for doing so. You'll hesitate when you should be assertive, you'll yield when you have the right of way, you'll damage your bike on debris in the shoulder because you're afraid to take the lane.

And one last thing. Cycling in traffic requires complete concentration, IMO. Doing on-the-fly statistical analysis of "ABIs" might not be what you should be focusing on, hm?

RichC

DnvrFox

You think that will get the legislature to change the law and the police to enforce it?

Good luck.

IMHO, a plan might be to mobilize all on Bikeforums.net and other internet groups into a "letter writing, see your legislature, go to the capital and lobby, get spots on TV and radio shows, get letters in the newspapers, get interviews in the newspapers, etc." type of group.

A single individual is most unlikely to effect change by himself in the political system.

Join and support your local, state and/or national advocacy group. I have, have you?

It takes groups, politics, strength to get change, to get laws passed, to get enforcement changed.

I have had some experience over the years in making some changes in disability rights, disability school laws and access laws and enforcement.

It can be done, but very unlikely by a single individual.

closetbiker

So are you saying that the benefits from daily aerobic exercise someone can get from cycling, would not improve the chances of prevention or survival of 70 people each year from the 80,000 people that die in Canada from heart disease?

DnvrFox

This is amazing.

NOWHERE in this thread have I advocated that one single person follow my example.

To the contrary, I think everyone should choose what and where they want to ride.

I was sharing my feelings about riding on roads, and somehow you feel threatened or whatever and change my feelings into scare-mongering and trying to get others to do things differently.

Have you really read the entire thread, especially my comments?

It seems to me that you are uncomfortable discussing controversial issues. Right? If so, why is that?

DnvrFox

Darn!!

There goes my hope for a clone.

Rich Clark

Anybody who'd rather "be a Rich Clark" has much more serious problems than where to ride their bikes!

RichC

Pete Clark

John, this is a good point. I have three points to make concerning yours.

Firstly if the fact that Ken was killed by a drunk driver discounted his position on road cycling safety, then the heart-attack death of exercise physiologist, Ed Burke, would discount the wealth of professional expertise he brought to bear in his writings. These were simply unfortunate events that in no way compromise the messages of these men, whose works are well-respected.

Secondly, the driver that killed Ken was drunk. He ran off the road and overcorrected into the opposite lane, hitting Ken. Had Ken been cycling on an adjacent path, he could just as easily have been killed. Unless you advocate a bike path separated by a concrete wall, a bike path would offer no protection here. In addition, pedestrians and drivers would have been at risk. I remember a court case for which I was called for jury duty in which an intoxicated man crossed the center line and killed an elderly couple--in their car.

Finally, many well-known cyclists could be mentioned that are healthy and happy. Two that come to mind are Claire Duckham of Dayton, Ohio, who if still alive, is probably 100 years old and still riding centuries--on the road; the other is a "little old lady" named Nancy Fortin, who rides on the road every day, from 30 to 50 miles (I forget how old she is, but I think well ahead of most of us.) But like the saying goes, good news doesn't sell newspapers.

Pete Clark

I have a great deal of respect for your positions, arguments, experience and insight, Rich. Your arguments alone are sufficient to convince me. Comments of the above type are overkill.

DnvrFox

Chris - Have I really been "Scare-mongering?" and "trying to put others off?"

Is discussion of controversial issues inappropriate?

At least get your facts correct.

This is from my original post. Notice the emphasis on "I".

Why is it that people have this need to change the intent of a personal post about my own decision into some sort of attack, attempting to make me some sort of "scare-mongerer?"

Chris, do what you like about riding, and I will do what I like. In the meantime, if the thread upsets you, don't read it.

"Scare-mongering" indeed!!

This is ludicrous.

Pete Clark

I never said I wanted to change the law--quite the opposite. I said I was for enforcing existing laws.

You say that I as a single individual can do nothing. I don't accept that premise. If I did, I should lie down and die right now, and get it over with.

I don't think you really believe that, anyway, since you, a single individual, are arguing energetically to change my mind (that of a single individual,) as if you believed that somehow it might make a difference.

DnvrFox

Okay - then do you think this will get the police to enforce the law, forget the legislature. I guess the current laws are fine?

Of course I am for enforcing the current laws. How do you get that done? Talking to some bicycling friends won't get it done. Writing about it on BicycleForums.net won't. What will?

Pete Clark

You hold to the belief that talking about it is fruitless, yet you persist doing exactly that.

uciflylow

So, is this what they call a "troll"?

I say, yes, or you would have started this thread.

This is true, but I see it as implied.

The facts for where I live. If I didn't ride on the road, I wouldn't ride! There are NO, NODA, NONE, 0, bike paths for anyone to ride on. Many of the roads here don't have sidewalks. I beleave the best tool a bike rider has is what is under his helmet, except for closetbiker, who has his under his thick matt of hair(BTW I don't have hair, so I wear a helmet). I couldn't MTB, because there is NO public land, so I ride roadie and don't feel threatened in the least. For the record, most of the population of the this country that doesn't live in a major city must chose to ride the roads, or don't ride.

Some of the best advice about the road I learned from one of our ER nurses, who is an avid motorcyclist.
1. No one can see you!
2. If they can, they are trying to kill you!
These rules work well for bicyclist also. I was almost hit by my next door neighbor yesterday evening. I was looking at her make a rolling stop and she couldn't see me for the sun in her face. You have to look out for yourself.

Pete Clark

If the written word is ineffective, then let's burn all the history books.

Pat

A few days back, I posted a message here about the relative risk of fatal injury cycling vs operating a motorized vehicle. From the statistics, I estimated that operating a motorized vehicle was about 10 times as risky as an experienced cyclist riding on the road. I did point out that often I did not "feel" as safe riding as driving.

Now Denver Fox took this comment about not "feeling" as safe as a confirmation of his decision to eschew roads and ride on bike paths.

Well, I think he missed the point of my post. First off, to me, "feelings" are pretty irrelevant and often misleading. I am a firmer belief in facts and statistics. By the way, I am reasonably expert in statistics.

Personally, I suspect that riding on bike paths is riskier then riding on the roads. Bike paths seem to be virtual mine fields of dern fools who seem intent on inflicting bodily harm on any cyclists who dare use the paths. Bike paths can be used at very slow speed and with one's paranoia operating at FULL ALERT. But generally, I feel much safer and comfortable out on the road with the semis (huge trucks) which generally do operate by traffic rules.

As a bit of confirmation, in our local club, the only fatality we have had has been on a bike path. And our next worst injury was one involving neural damage and that one happened on a bike path also.

Gosh bike paths scare me. In facts, I think the very name is on oxymoron. It seems that cyclists are the least favored users of bike paths. It seems that pedestrians, dogs on leashes, dogs off leashes, roller bladers, toddlers, runners, joggers, and people holding discussions in the middle of the path all take precidence over cyclists. But they don't call them pedestrian-dog-skater-runner-jogger-child-and discussion forum paths do they? I wonder why not?

Shoot motorists want to kick cyclists off the road onto "bike paths" but it seems that cyclists are no more welcome on "bike paths" then on the road. I have come to the conclusion that cyclists are persona non grata in all situations by the general populace. We are wrong because we exist and nothing short of extermination will make people happy.

Pete Clark

Of course, nobody disputes this.

Yet belonging to a cycling advocacy organization does not put one squarely in the pro-path, anti-path or anything-in-between
camp.

But among experienced cyclists, I think there is a growing consensus that for cycling to remain practical in the United States, cyclists must be accomodated with motor traffic on the road, even if there is some lack of consensus about the degree to which bike paths and bike lanes should be included in this picture, and how they should be designed. Basically everyone is for increased road safety.

Who was it that started the MADD organization? Wasn't is a woman who had lost a loved one to a drunk driver? Isn't that a picture of a single individual making a difference by influencing others to rally around her cause?

Rich Clark

Pete, what I meant by the comment was that after all the many paragraphs of "data and analysis" that John presented, he reached the conclusion that

"What I'm encouraging is that you look at your own cycling experience, and see what you can do right now, with your own behavior, which will lessen your chances of being injured by a car."

To me, that's a conclusion that's so obvious and already so deeply ingrained in any experienced cyclist's consciousness that it hardly needs repeating, and certainly didn't need all that set-up.

"No sh*t, Sherlock" is a slang phrase that means "please don't belabor the obvious." If you took it to mean something else, or were offended by its crudeness, I'm sorry. But I did mean it.

RichC

Roughstuff

I usea new bike trail near us quite often and have found it to be more pleasant and practical than i hought it would be. Nonetheless, I think the money spent on 'bike paths' would be much better spend on providing better shoulders on as many roads as possible. Here in the Berkshires of Massachusetts I find route 7 north, with its generous shoulders and sweeping views of the Taconic mountains, to be far more enjoyable riding than the rail trail, which is down on the swampy flats with relatively little view and creative terrain. But each have their flavours and features.

I agree this is difficult in urban areas.

Roughstuff

mrfix

Roughstuff
I ride in that are often, the new trail from Pittsfield to Adams is one of the nicest I've seen. The area really needed that. Route 7 and Route 2 toward Greenfield are both great rides.
Pete

Roughstuff

I think there are parts of Rt 8 that needed it, but on balance the shoulders on Rt 8 are nice too. The area along Cheshire Lake is fantastic. I do find, as others have chuckled, that dogs, bladers and chatters fill up the space: but hey, i love seeing on the trail instead of in their cars at the nearby mall.

I like Rt 2, but Rt 116 is nice and has less traffic. 112, which connects 'nowhere' on rt 2 with 'nowhere' on rt 20 is a classic western mass road. It is now wider in many areas and this has removed alot of its charm: you used to be able to reach out and touch the rock outcrops lining the road.

Pete Clark

I'm glad we all have a sense of humor around here!

Denver, I really value your friendship and I respect your convictions. Though we disagree on a few points, what we have in common far outweighs our disagreements.

DnvrFox

Thanks, and I also agree with you.

We enjoy together

- a deep joy of cycling

- a desire to keep fit even as we reach an age where others consider us unfit to even drive!

- a respect for all who have the courage, energy and desire to leave their cars behind, even if for only a bit, and venture out on that most efficient of machines - the bicycle.

- the peace and serenity that comes, at least to me, from the bicycling experience.

And we perhaps disagree just a little on where and how the safest way to bike is, and how to get that safety increased.

So what?

Our friendship will survive worse than that.

Thanks.

Pete Clark

I feel the same way

Chris L

Let's see, you start a thread entitled "on deaths, dying and bicyclijng", you then post a whole heap of reasons about why cycling on roads must surely be "dangerous" without a single fact to back it up (apart from one recent death, which is a lot less than many other activities). I'd say that this is a pretty good attempt at scaremongering.

And what exactly is so controversial about it? The whole "riding on the road is so dangerous" is nothing new or innovative. It was a load of crap when I started riding, and it's still a load of crap over 100,000km later.

There's nothing incorrect about my facts, although one could easily question yours. While you're at it, you might also tell me what exactly in my post constituted a personal attack of any kind. I merely said that the content of the post I quoted amounted to scare-mongering, and I'm still convinced that it does.

This from someone who wrote:

Perhaps you might consider practicing what you preach if you consider some of the posts here to be such a waste of your precious time.

John C. Ratliff

I don't have a lot of time for a long-winded reply, but you guys got it wrong with me. First, Ken Kifer's death was, and is, a shock. Realize that, and respect the process some have to go through. If that process means re-evaluating some basic assumptions, so be it. This really has nothing to do with logic, and statistics about how safe cycling is. It simply is the very human response to a tragedy. I say again, please respect that.

For those who feel that I'm fairly skiddish about bicycling, I have 75 miles this week, on both paths and roads. That, for me, is a pretty good week of riding. The paths around my place are not densely inhabited by foot traffic, or any other traffic. It is unusual when I encounter a person, and I usually stop to let them by (I'm not in that much of a rush, and encountering them is much more pleasant than a car). This might happen twice a day.

Riding a bike path is much quieter, and nicer, than riding on the road. I do count cars occasionally, and have this week, as a means to satisfy that deep craving for information about my own environment. If someone else wants to use my technique, at least they know of it. If not, don't. I don't care. It is simply another approach to deciding which roads have the most traffic.

We've been enjoying unusually good weather here, the days this week were all sunny, and the commutes were very nice. My noon rides showed me some interesting country, that I'll explore more in the weeks to come. I hope everyone enjoys the weekend.

John

PS--I might start a thread titled, "On life, living, and bicycling." It seems much more positive than this thread's title.