CB HI

Between Chipcom and climbhoser: I am pretty sure I know who would be getting the ass kicking!

ccd rider

I would be interested to see how many here have ever driven a big truck and plow? If you have, you would know that parked cars are a nuisance, but they are certainly not the biggest problem. A parked car is a static object. Once you resign yourself to their position on the roads/parking lots they are only a logistical issue.....ie from the standpoint of keeping the proper lateral distance and determining how the snow is rolling off the plow blade (so as not to leave a big ridge of snow next to them). True, you do have to watch for the renegade door opening.....or the suddenly appearing person (who was until that time stealthily undetected behind the vehicles). But that's precisely the point. Those are both dynamic issues. Movement is the scary stuff. You have to find that balance between keeping enough momentum to keep the snow moving (esp. when deeper snow exists) and being able to take evasive action (or at least attempt to do so) if necessary.

Not saying this particular scenario is in that category. If a plow driver has enough time to maneuver, then they must avoid whatever is on the road regardless of the legalities.....proving a point by (right or wrong in this case) coming that close is inexcusable. I have plowed snow for years and I have been frustrated beyond belief by the lack of courtesy (or just the plain ignorance of the dangers involved) of people you run across. But you have to turn the other cheek. You have an unbelievably powerful and potentially lethal weapon at your disposal......you can't use it like one just because you think you're in the right.

Just wanted to chime in based on my experiences from both sides. There are good plow drivers and bad ones.....the good ones understand they aren't going to have an ideal situation with which to plow, and accept responsibility for safety. And because of that I can vouch for the fact it is exhausting work. You have to be on extreme alert at all times, and it is mentally fatiguing.....particularly when the snow is relentless. I'm always amazed by the reaction of so many that plowing snow is some kind of glamorous and easy job. Nothing could be further from the truth. I've done some very labor intensive things in my position (groundskeeper on a college campus) and most times I would rather shovel snow than plow incessantly.

The other thing to consider is the likelihood the plow driver you engage (via bike, car, on foot, etc.) has been working long hours and waking up at all hours as well. Often times there are not sufficient budgets for relief by others (or if you are esp. good at it). Cut them some slack when you can.....most will do the same for you. Indignation may not bring you what you were hoping.

ghettocruiser

I don't disagree with your experience, my reference to parked cars was based on what snow removal crews have been commenting on through the media here. Frequently.

Generally plows here have to operate in stop-and go traffic. A lot of the fleet here are actually road graders, perhaps for that inertia-killing reason.

I've never had any issues with any plow operators here, I should add, heck, they go out of there way to accommodate a lot of bad drivers and other road users.

Now those guys with the pick-up truck plows, on the other hand... well, they are a different story.

climbhoser

Do tell your convictions.

I'm no raging terrorist on my way to track down some random buffoon on the 'net just because he's missing a chromosome.

Besides, I never said I wanted to do the ass kicking (though I'd probably enjoy it and have no trouble with it) just that I need to see it done to feel as though his dues have been paid. I haven't a lick of tolerance for the inbred *******s of this country like chipcom.

DataJunkie

Dude. Calm down.
Chip is a cool guy.
Not to mention an ex marine and ex sheriff if memory serves me correctly.

You seem like a decent bloke but this is getting silly.

chipcom 

Nice guys, meet em everywhere!

riddei

Hey I made an Avatar

I think the reason this thread has gotten so much attention, and the cross-post in the ice biking sub forum has essentially gotten none, is the fact that the people here tend to bike with a purpose (if you will).

I for one am happy that it will be fairly nice tomorrow and I will be back on my bike for my commute! A lot of my colleagues have been without electricity for 48 hours with the ice after the snow. I'd take 3' of snow over a 1/4 inch of ice.

Either way, it takes common sense to know when to back off or not.

climbhoser

Ex-marine vs. All American wrestler...it'd be an interesting match up

I'm sure he has some hand to hand skills, and I have no doubt lots of discipline and American pride. I used to fight for a job is all...like I said, it'd be an interesting match up.

He's still a dumbass.

znomit

This would NEVER have happened if Mr Plow was on duty.

rukawa

I was walking down the street on a Saturday morning after a night of snow.. just to enjoy myself. Suddenly I heard someone honking from the distance. I turned to look and thought the truck was honking at some car. When I turned for the second time I realized it was a plow truck going full speed at me burying everything on the sidewalk behind me.

I quickly ran into a vacant parking lot 20 meters away for cover. He swooshed right past, the wave of snow could've easily buried me right on the sidewalk. Even at 20 meters away snow stilll splashed the hoses of my pants. I guess I could've taken the honking as 'please get out of the way..' since he doesn't have megaphones on his truck.

newbojeff

Wow...just wow. Plenty of bad behavior to go around here.

Bit of an aside, but it makes me think of what I've taught our kids. When it snows, my kids (and I) love playing outside, in front of our house, and in the street. Our street is a "U" off of another street so we get very little through traffic. Even given that, I've trained them to keep an ear and an eye out. If they see or hear a car, somebody yells "Car!" and we move out of the street. I have also taught them that snowplows are especially dangerous. If we even HEAR a snowplow in our neighborhood -- and for those of you in warmer climes, they make a ton of noise -- my kids know to just get out of the street. If the snowplows are out, visibility is bad, road conditions are bad, the driver is likely to be tired, and he has a job to do -- getting our street and all the others cleared of snow.

I have a mirror. If I see a snowplow working in my mirror, I am making sure there is plenty of room or I getting out of the street.

I try to cycle safe, smart, seriously, and courteously. I absolutely insist on my right to the road, but I find I get a lot more satisfaction out of cycling and probably have a more positive impact on automobile drivers when I interact with them in a friendly, constructive, productive way.

chipcom 

More like 48 year old combat veteran and ex-Olympic wrestler vs a wannabe, poor mannered big mouth kid. Not much of interest there. Who's your coach, kid, maybe I know him and I'm sure he'd be proud of your behavior in here.

Now go pick on some girls and leave the actual discussion to the adults.

climbhoser

48, eh? Sound like an old fart. Brittle and sour, easy to hurt.

Coaches WERE Chuck Kearny and Rick Stewart. Look 'em up.

lil brown bat

And that's a totally legit subject for discussion, even (maybe especially) on the commuting forum, where we're using the road to perform an inarguably necessary function (getting to work). I'm not sure, though, that a discussion of this situation is really helped by the automatic, knee-jerk expression of the "other side" of the more generalized issue. Saying that cyclists (and motorists, and pedestrians) need to give way to other vehicles in certain situations doesn't call into question a cyclist's right to use the road; therefore, it's a strawman argument that detracts from a discussion of what is reasonable and prudent behavior for a cyclist in this situation. That's all.

I don't think that point is all that relevant, for two reasons:

1. Children use the "Yeah, but HE..." "argument" to try to get over with Mom for their bad behavior. Adults recognize that I don't get a pass on my bad because of your bad, unless I can argue that your bad causes my bad. If my bad is merely in response to your bad, I need to grow up.
2. We're not snowplow drivers. We're the ones on the bikes. We have 100% control over our own behavior, rather less so over the behavior of others. If what you want is to ride safely, the answer isn't always to fly into battle to try and get someone else to be a better person -- sometimes it starts with modifying your own behavior, within reason.

You are the only person who's saying that. Please stop projecting that view onto others.

But what would a "win" look like? A statement of, "Oh, you're right, it's perfectly okay for cyclists to go wherever they want, at whatever speed they want, and not move over even if they're going slower than a bus with 60 people on board and they have plenty of room to do so"?

No one "put all the fault the cyclists". That's a strawman.

climbhoser

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._United_States

No "Ciammaichella."

FYI, I wasn't bluffin' ya. Good to know you've got a poker face, old man.

Paul L.

Can you guys go discuss who is more manly outside of the thread? (Sorry chipcom, it's not necessarily you but your counterpart is annoying and this keeps getting further from the topic).

The Human Car

I'm not following the first point, cyclist bad for riding in road causes snow plow drivers bad = snow plow driver needs to grow up.

As one example here, though on investigation I think I am reacting more to comments on the blog.

Man for somebody who is down on strawman arguments that's a whooper. The law specifies that cyclists stay right and faster MotorVs pass safely/far on the left. A win reinforces the motorVs responsibilities, it does not negate the cyclists responsibilities.

I will also note that the MAJOR problem with buses is with cyclists that are already traveling too far right. If we could physically and legally ride over parked cars to accommodate buses I am sure we would but if we are already as far over as we can be buses should not be harassing us.

On the cyclists side I will note that that there are many situations with buses where moving to the LEFT is the more appropriate option.

I give you that my paraphrasing of that position is not the best.

The Human Car

I'll second this.

chipcom 

Ahh, college education but didn't learn history. To put an end to your little pecker-size contest...you should be able to find my contact info pretty easily, since you found my name...so if you feel froggy, come on out and jump. In the meantime, your silliness and rudeness is bothering folks, so if you got something to say on topic, other than vagasil cracks, we're holding our breaths in anticipation of your incisive insight.

DataJunkie

Third.

Doesn't this site have mods?

DynamicD74

Speaking as someone who lives in the Raleigh, NC area, I'm not sure I get your point. Keep in mind that a large number of us are not natives of the area, and in fact, many of us are from NY state, New England and the midwestern US, where we have frequently seen and have had to navigate large amts. of snow and sometimes, blizzards, before relocating to Raleigh. I think I remember JeffS asking about LBS in Raleigh when he first relocated here. So, he's not a native of Raleigh either. And, as you stated in a subsequent post, this is the commuting forum, not the weather channel or the travel channel. However, having said all that, you should consider visiting Raleigh during one of your predicted snowstorms. I think you would appreciate our mid-60's temperatures we have today, with our bright sunshine i.e. fabulous bicycling weather!

lil brown bat

That's not what I said or implied. The point is that the "Yeah, but HE did so and so!" "argument" is used by whiny children to try and divert attention to someone else's transgression (which in no way caused or, in this case, even contributed to the whiner's own transgression). The plow driver's bad behavior did not cause or contribute to the cyclist's bad behavior.

I think you are. The example you cited was:

Now, I'm sure you don't really mean to claim that this is an example of someone saying, "For argument sake lets say the cyclist is a total jerk and since he is a jerk people should be free to physically assault and harass him as he is only getting what he deserves for being a jerk."?

That works in the general case. It doesn't work in this case. Where's the "win" here? What would that look like?

I was just gonna say, I've found that you often get better coexistence with buses by getting left, at least in city traffic with relatively low speeds and frequent stops. They are, after all, frequently trying to get right.

AEO

IMO this thread got so long and off topic with bashing that it feels like it should belong in A&S.

riddei

I've been to Raleigh, it is one of the few places in the south I would consider moving! However it's too far from the ocean for me.

Having said that, early in this thread I thought it ironic that the OP was from Vegas, and people from the south were chiming in. It just kinda struck a chord that someone said we must have such an inferiority complex that we couldn't leave the driveway. My five layers of synthetic clothing in sub zero *F commuting arse took offence. That and I'm jealous of your climate .

sfcrossrider

Did someone say rice cakes?!?!?!?!