harleyfrog

Try telling that to the LEO or, better yet, the judge. I can all but guarantee that a LEO will materialize out of thin air if I tried pulling that maneuver and write me a ticket for failing to stop. Stupid law? Perhaps, but there are plenty of stupid (and dangerous) people out there that could potentially turn me into a road pizza. So for my own safety, I will obey the law, thank you very much.

genec

For the most part you are correct... and as Bek pointed out, Idaho has laws that allow you to turn stop lights into stop signs... providing you do not impair traffic. But that is the big caveat isn't it... "to make sure there is a predictable, orderly flow to traffic." Clearly in this case, that was NOT what happened... there was an effect on the flow of traffic, and the "no harm no foul" was only avoided due to the quick use of the brake by a motorist... so indeed it was "a big deal."

This is why my negative reaction: that often the example given by a quite skilled cyclist is followed by those "less then skilled" with poor results. Or that motorists take the impression that cyclists in general are scofflaws and then we get the strange crap at stop signs where they try to wave you through... figuring that you are probably going to run it anyway... the result usually being the "after you Alphonse" dance where indeed traffic is delayed until someone puts a foot down.

I understand the need to maintain momentum, and that traffic lights are timed and build for motor traffic... but for now, the best thing to do is follow "same roads same rules" and petition for Idaho like changes to the laws.

BTW, no one around... freaking run 'em. But I mean... NOBODY around.

mechBgon

In that situation, I'd just plunk myself dead-center in the left through lane, wait for the normal green light, accelerate from the stoplight, and signal my impending left turn. I do something pretty similar every day on my way home from work. Seems to work just fine... my 0-25mph acceleration is brisker than most downtown traffic anyway, so using the left lane for one block while setting up for a turn is not a big deal, even if I'm first in line. And if I'm not first in line, the need for quick acceleration diminishes since a line of traffic generally accelerates more gradually the further back you are.

On the original topic, yeah, I've felt angry at scofflaw cyclists for the negative image they're presenting. Wrong-way cyclists and red-light/stop-sign blowers are the primary offenders.

cooker

You're being inconsistent here. First of all, I don't know who gets to make up the "rule" that it's ok to run a red light under certain circumstances. Why don't we all make up our own traffic rules?

Anyway, this maneuver, which you have now referred to as "gutsy", dangerous, safe, faster, "against the rules", etc. has not changed since the OP, yet your attitude towards it seems to be all over the map.

Okay, but in the case of the OP, it did affect flow and it did not make the cyclist safer. This is the advocacy and safety forum, and you are proposing to the vast forum readership, many of whom may not have your skill and experience, that they practise an illegal maneuver that you acknowledge is highly dangerous, and that almost lead to a serious outcome in the situation described in the OP.

cooker

How can you even be sure from day to day whether opposing traffic has an advanced green arrow? In some Toronto intersection which San Rensho may know of, the signals vary by time of day (eg. Avenue Rd. and Lawrence) or by traffic flow (eg. College and Spadina). Or an arrow signal might have been installed without your knowledge.

As well, in some offset intersections like Yonge and Blythwood/Lytton, it is common for southbound car drivers who want to turn left, to try to get the jump on northbound traffic and make a fast left turn on green before the intersection fills up. A northbound cyclist who anticipated the light changing and jumped before the green would be smack in the middle by then.

Bekologist

usually, cars turning left while opposing traffic is stopped for thru travel is a pretty good indicator

You reference motorists pulling a very similar stunt as Sam Rensho does, except without the signalized left hand turn- jumping the queue to make a left in front of traffic with right of way.
motorists do it.....

SonataInFSharp

I never used to get upset at cyclists I encounter while driving.

Now that I have been riding in a major city for some time, I get upset at cyclists while driving and have no problems letting them know, either.

Blue Order

And that admission gets to the truth of the matter, and totally negates the silly, self-serving "safety" argument some cyclists try to pass off as serious cycling advocacy.

By the way, some motorists choose faster over strict legality too.

cooker

and your point...?

San Rensho 

It is a question of safety and not just that light running cyclists are just selfish.

It is safer for cyclist to run reds and stops in some circumstances. Its undeniable that being up and moving in traffic on a bicycle, as close to the speed of car traffic as possible, is the safest way to ride.

One of the most dangerous times for a bicycle rider is the transition between a dead stop and getting moving when there is traffic behind the cyclist. The first two revolutions of the pedals are the time that you are most likely to slip, and at least stall, if not fall completely down, at the same time that the drag race of cars has started behind you. Then, of course, as you accelerate much slower than car traffic, the impatient drivers in back of you are going tailgate you, further putting you at risk. Not a good situation to be in.

So if you can avoid all of the above by running a red or a stop sign ONLY IF YOU DON'T INTERFERE WITH ANYONE ELSES RIGHT OF WAY you are definitely safer because you are up and moving as close to the speed of car traffic as you can. This means you blend in with traffic better, which is safer, and it means fewer carws will pass you, which is always safer because each car that passes you can potentially hit you. And if you don't interfere with anyone's right of way when you run a red or a stop sign, what is the harm, what has the cyclist done wrong?

StrangeWill

I don't yell except for comedic effect, typically yelling does nothing unless I'm trying to get someone's attention to avoid something or tell them something, sitting in my car and yelling makes me look like I'm special.

Also for me, I kind of watch for signs that cyclists are going to disobey laws and give room to stop in case they pull stupid stunts, not that hard.

Autoworker

Personally, I treat EVERY red light and stop sign as a yield sign under these conditions. To do otherwise is nothing but an anally slavish obedience to authority.

Think for yourself, and put your own safety above everything else. No one else will do it for you!

Bekologist

My point that motorists pull the same trick Sam Rensho describes??? he executes a similar manuver, only on his bike. i wonder if the OP would have been as upset with a motorist pulling the same trick? or would he perhaps have noticed the car sooner and pulled emergency action? how attentive was the OP while motoring thru that intersection?

oh, that no one group of road users are saints, and we're all breaking the laws out there. I suspect virtually everyone who drove in america today exceeded the legal speed limits, and failed to come to a complete stop at a stopsign.

this is all just argumentative speculation, ive got no interest in further attempting to convince goody two shoe legal beagles that sometimes breaking a traffic law makes the overall ride safer for a bicyclist.

Blue Order

Yes, that's why I stop, it's because I'm an obedient slave who can't think for myself....

aMull

I also do this. At light which i know the sequence it's easy. When the light for the corss traffic starts turning to yellow, i wait for any remaining cars to pass and then go. In the time it takes their light to go red, and for the oncoming traffic's left arrow to go green, i have enough time to corss the intersection without causing anyone harm.

OH306

Any guesses how Bek broke his hip?

Bekologist

sliding out on undectable construction slurry in a corner in a rainstorm, rushing home to let out my new dog and pick up my car to get my girlfriend at the airport. running traffic signals had nothing to do with it.

LittleBigMan

You're not really a "nun," are you?

v1k1ng1001

StrangeWill

Sauron got his ass kicked by midgets, remember that.

Darrenmc

"Motorists do it, and it works for them, so must be OK for bikes too?"

One difference: they are surrounded by a few thousand pounds of metal and I'm not. What is a sensible risk for them is not a sensible risk for a cyclist.

This "it's a gutsy move if done right, good way to get killed if your judgement and timing are slightly off" business is way too adventurous for me. No thanks.

I've been known to run stop signs on quiet side streets with nobody around (a cyclist has an advantage in the "telling if nobody is around" activity, we are higher up and can hear better... in general as a car driver I don't feel safe doing that because I can't really tell what else might be coming through that intersection). So it's not about "slavish obedience to every traffic law", however the laws are there for a reason and if you're going to break them it had better be damn obvious that it is completely safe to do so. I would consider it a massive, foolish, and dangerous failure of my cycling technique to cause an incident like that described by the OP. There is no "other side to the story"... the cyclist in question is an idiot who just about got himself killed. As a motorist I'd unload on him too. Case closed.

botto 

sounds like you have some anger management issues.