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How come noone rides like this?

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How come noone rides like this?

Old 08-16-08, 10:03 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by veggie_lover
If you ride assertively in your lane, people are not going to mess with you.
How, may I ask, do you "ride assertively" on a bike vs. 3000-5000 pound vehicles. I like to enjoy myself, not worry about getting run over.
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Old 08-16-08, 11:17 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
And there is a tiny minority of bicyclists who actually believe that incessant posturing and sloganeering forms an impervious shield about them when cycling in real traffic, just like in the pleasant drawings/diagrams in their well thumbed books and pamphlets.
And how, pray tell, would you ride in a lane too narrow to share... such as the typical older (thus narrow) urban street lined with parked cars. Bear in mind that the illustration shows an empty lane running parallel that any other traffic could use. No sidewalks are shown, no shoulder is shown... so these alternatives may not be available. Alternative streets may also not be available (a situation that readily exists in my 1950s neighborhood, which is surrounded by canyons)

Please tell us your magic sir. How do you ride such streets?
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Old 08-16-08, 11:28 AM
  #28  
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I take the lane when necessary. Mainly on 30-35 mph streets that look exactly like the diagram. I've been squished into the gutter to many times to not ride like this and riding the sidewalk is slow. Take the lane when necessary, move over when possible.

Practicable doesn not mean the same as possible. Practicable is given because it allows cyclists to decide what is safe and what is not.
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Old 08-16-08, 11:32 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by e-Man
How, may I ask, do you "ride assertively" on a bike vs. 3000-5000 pound vehicles. I like to enjoy myself, not worry about getting run over.
To me, riding assertively means riding with confident body language, not hesitating to take the lane when I need to, and not being tentative when interacting with cars. If you're tentative, motorists will walk all over you. If you're assertive, things work out much better.

I ride mainly in busy city streets in Boston, and riding assertively is a must.
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Old 08-16-08, 11:39 AM
  #30  
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urban road and traffic conditions that necessitate an assertive bicyclist is part of the core problem affecting ridership and rider safety in the USA

- roads that appear unsafe quell ridership,
-conditions that encourage curbhugging decrease safety,
and lack of riders fuel motorists' discrimination against bikes as transportation.
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Old 08-16-08, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingAnchor
Depends on where I am riding, the hwy (101) has a speed limit of 65 mph, no way am I riding like that. The city streets are a different matter, especially when I am making a left hand turn, then I take the lane (left) about a block early and stay there. If I am chugging up a hill I stay as far right as "practical"

Steven
WHY ARE YOU ON THE HIGHWAY! In toronto thats illegal!
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Old 08-16-08, 12:40 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by apricissimus
To me, riding assertively means riding with confident body language, not hesitating to take the lane when I need to, and not being tentative when interacting with cars. If you're tentative, motorists will walk all over you. If you're assertive, things work out much better.

I ride mainly in busy city streets in Boston, and riding assertively is a must.
While I don't disagree with ride "assertively..." there are two issues that can really screw that up... one is when assertive cyclist meets assertive motorist. (or worse, "aggressive" motorist)

The other issue is when motorists mistake "polite" for "wimpy." We seem to have lost courtesy in this country, as everyone "assertively" works on their self esteem.

Last edited by genec; 08-16-08 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 08-16-08, 12:45 PM
  #33  
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I do everyday

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5oz68pMWoM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvhon7TkwtA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNYSvFc50qA
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Old 08-16-08, 12:48 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rammsteinfire13
WHY ARE YOU ON THE HIGHWAY! In toronto thats illegal!
Check a map... a highway may not be limited access, and in fact may be the only way to some locations.

These definitions and rules tend to vary from country to country and location to location.

I understand in Maryland for instance cyclists are not permitted on certain highways, where as in other places highways are perfectly legal to use, but freeways or interstates may be off limits (with exceptions) to cyclists.

And of course the real catch is that "highway" is often defined in law as any road.

Do you have "farm highways" or "rural highways" in Ontario? Looking at the map, I suspect roads such as 404 and 407 are off limits to cyclists, but I suspect that the use of 7, 48, and 12 may be OK.
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Old 08-16-08, 06:33 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by genec
And how, pray tell, would you ride in a lane too narrow to share... such as the typical older (thus narrow) urban street lined with parked cars. Bear in mind that the illustration shows an empty lane running parallel that any other traffic could use. No sidewalks are shown, no shoulder is shown... so these alternatives may not be available. Alternative streets may also not be available (a situation that readily exists in my 1950s neighborhood, which is surrounded by canyons)

Please tell us your magic sir. How do you ride such streets?
And no other traffic is shown, nor any parked cars. In fact such an idealized street as in the the diagram doesn't look like any of the urban streets that I commuted on daily in Philadelphia for five years. Those streets had constant traffic in all lanes, including passing (of both cars and cyclists) from the right parking/bus lane if the motorists thought they could squeeze in and beat the slowpoke across the intersection.

My point is that urban cycling is hardly as simple as spouting "take the lane" or "stay off sidewalks" or "never ever ride in a door zone" or "be assertive" mantras, and drawing over simplified schematics.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 08-16-08 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 08-16-08, 08:17 PM
  #36  
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That diagram exactly describes a stretch of my commute past the local mall. The traffic is not completely bumper to bumper, but it is fairly plentiful. Maine law includes the narrow lane exception to the ride to the right rule, as others have quoted, so it is perfectly legal here. I will admit that I don't take the exact center in that section, but I do ride around 2-3' out from the edge, especially because the edge has a lot of bad pavement and drain grates. So cars don't have to pull completely into the next lane to pass me, but they do have to pull out a little. And guess what - they do! I also hold my place the center of the lane at red lights, with no problems.

Granted, I ride faster than your average beginner, although I'm no racer. But I think more important than speed is riding a straight line. Of course someone who can't ride a straight line is going to have trouble riding as shown in this situation, and will get a lot of motorists ticked off. But I don't think the 8-10 MPH difference between a beginner and me is that significant if both are riding a straight line. Besides, the red lights are frequent enough in my case that the cars don't have time to get up to a really high speed between them. (They aren't timed to keep cars moving, an advantage for cyclists!)

The exception to this speed-matters-less theory might be the ability to get up to speed quickly when the light changes. I have developed a pretty quick start and I do think it helps, because I'm not holding up the person behind me that much while I hold the center of the lane to at least the middle of the intersection before trending right again.

ILTB, you didn't answer the question. And when would it ever be appropriate to ride in the door zone?
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Old 08-16-08, 10:27 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
And there is a tiny minority of bicyclists who actually believe that incessant posturing and sloganeering forms an impervious shield about them when cycling in real traffic, just like in the pleasant drawings/diagrams in their well thumbed books and pamphlets.
A pithy slogan can sum up a simple concept far better than any Wall Of Words ever did.
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Old 08-16-08, 10:41 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Machka
Because it's not the right way to ride ... it's actually illegal.

According to the traffic act in the province where I live, cyclists must ride as far to the right as practicable. Not down the middle of the lane.

Check your laws.
Most "as far to the right as practicable" laws have an exception if the lane is not wide enough to share safely. Regardless of explicit exemptions, if a lane is not wide enough that a car could pass me in the lane with three feet clearance, then as far as practicable becomes the middle of the lane. Otherwise drivers will try to pass me too closely, and that's hardly practicable.

Examples:
Florida: A bicyclist may leave the right-most portion of the road in the following situations: when passing, making a left turn, to avoid road hazards, or when a lane is too narrow for a bicycle and a car to share safely

Ontario: the government even publishes a cycling skills booklet saying

In urban areas where a curb lane is too narrow to share safely with a motorist, it is legal to take the whole lane by riding in the centre of it.
(https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pub...ction3.0.shtml)
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Old 08-16-08, 10:50 PM
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But if there is a dual carriage way, as in the example, the lanes will very likely be wide enough to accommodate both car and bicycle ... especially in my part of the world where the law I referred to comes from.

As far to the right as practicable means riding as close to the curb or edge of the road as you can and still be able to pedal the bicycle without running into road grates, gravel, etc. Should you encounter such hazards, you are allowed to move toward the middle of the lanes.

Interestingly, the law here also states that motorized vehicles should ride as close to the center line as practicable.
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Old 08-17-08, 12:46 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by crazybikerchick
Most "as far to the right as practicable" laws have an exception if the lane is not wide enough to share safely. Regardless of explicit exemptions, if a lane is not wide enough that a car could pass me in the lane with three feet clearance, then as far as practicable becomes the middle of the lane. Otherwise drivers will try to pass me too closely, and that's hardly practicable.
I've found that you don't need to ride anywhere near the centre of the lane to do that though. About a metre from the lane edge is far enough. If you do get buzzed at that distance, though, I would recommend moving further into the lane rather than out of it.

Another handy traffic riding tip, is to not get too fazed about getting buzzed; it's bound to happen sooner or later, no matter how 'VC' you ride. The worst thing to do is panic, and lose your line.
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Old 08-17-08, 02:25 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Allister
Which is fine as long as the traffic is light enough to allow that pass. If it isn't, hold onto your heart, 'cause they'll be right up your date, and not happy about it.
My safety comes before anyone's convenience including my own. In a sub-standard width lane, this lane position is much safer than inviting close passing by hugging the curb and risking getting side-swiped. The only other viable alternative is choosing another route, if there is one available that is not the same scenario.

Whether "they" are happy about it is not a factor worth consideration.
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Old 08-17-08, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun
My safety comes before anyone's convenience including my own. In a sub-standard width lane, this lane position is much safer than inviting close passing by hugging the curb and risking getting side-swiped. The only other viable alternative is choosing another route, if there is one available that is not the same scenario.

Whether "they" are happy about it is not a factor worth consideration.
Did I say otherwise?
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Old 08-17-08, 05:00 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by JohnBrooking
That diagram exactly describes a stretch of my commute past the local mall. The traffic is not completely bumper to bumper, but it is fairly plentiful. Maine law includes the narrow lane exception to the ride to the right rule, as others have quoted, so it is perfectly legal here. I will admit that I don't take the exact center in that section, but I do ride around 2-3' out from the edge, especially because the edge has a lot of bad pavement and drain grates. So cars don't have to pull completely into the next lane to pass me, but they do have to pull out a little. And guess what - they do! I also hold my place the center of the lane at red lights, with no problems.

Granted, I ride faster than your average beginner, although I'm no racer. But I think more important than speed is riding a straight line. Of course someone who can't ride a straight line is going to have trouble riding as shown in this situation, and will get a lot of motorists ticked off. But I don't think the 8-10 MPH difference between a beginner and me is that significant if both are riding a straight line. Besides, the red lights are frequent enough in my case that the cars don't have time to get up to a really high speed between them. (They aren't timed to keep cars moving, an advantage for cyclists!)

The exception to this speed-matters-less theory might be the ability to get up to speed quickly when the light changes. I have developed a pretty quick start and I do think it helps, because I'm not holding up the person behind me that much while I hold the center of the lane to at least the middle of the intersection before trending right again.

ILTB, you didn't answer the question. And when would it ever be appropriate to ride in the door zone?
You first wrote that the diagram "exactly describes a stretch of my commute", then the rest of the post "admits" and lists the numerous significant differences and exceptions in your commute and technique from the diagram. What a laff!

I ride where it is best for me and that includes careful riding in door zones when that is a better alternative IMO than riding the available alternatives - usually all lanes full, busy city traffic. I prefer sensible riding based on my evaluation of the situation, rather than complying with dogmatic one right way solutions proffered on the Internet and pamphlets by self styled know-it-alls and/or VC disciples.
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Old 08-17-08, 06:16 AM
  #44  
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I will 'take the lane' if there is no other option (nice shoulder/breakdown lane/bike lane) and I can generally do 60 to 70% or more of the posted speed limit. For example, I don't have an issue doing it on a 30mph road but would not do it on a 55-65mph road.
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Old 08-17-08, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Stujoe
I will 'take the lane' if there is no other option (nice shoulder/breakdown lane/bike lane) and I can generally do 60 to 70% or more of the posted speed limit. For example, I don't have an issue doing it on a 30mph road but would not do it on a 55-65mph road.
I was thinking about relative speed last week while my bike was busted. I dont think drivers can tell if we are going 20 or 25 unless they are stuck behind us for a long time. Then it does not matter. I do try to stay off roads the speed limit is over 45mph.
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Old 08-17-08, 06:38 AM
  #46  
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I won't take the lane on a 40mph or more road. The closing speed between what I can ride and what the cars are coming up on me at is just too much for me to feel comfortable.

In that 25-35 mph speed limit area where I can sustain 20mph, I don't think the closing speed is dangerous for me. I have areas like that on my commute and I take the lane as needed. I also have a mirror, though, and I do watch my behind.
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Old 08-17-08, 06:41 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
You first wrote that the diagram "exactly describes a stretch of my commute", then the rest of the post "admits" and lists the numerous significant differences and exceptions in your commute and technique from the diagram. What a laff!

I ride where it is best for me and that includes careful riding in door zones when that is a better alternative IMO than riding the available alternatives - usually all lanes full, busy city traffic. I prefer sensible riding based on my evaluation of the situation, rather than complying with dogmatic one right way solutions proffered on the Internet and pamphlets by self styled know-it-alls and/or VC disciples.
OK you've danced around the question, so here it is directly... Do you ever take the lane? Is there any circumstance in which you ride so left as to consider it "taking the lane?"
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Old 08-17-08, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
OK you've danced around the question, so here it is directly... Do you ever take the lane? Is there any circumstance in which you ride so left as to consider it "taking the lane?"
Yes. There are a couple of places the lane is not wide enough for me and a car. The cars try to squeeze in it with me if I stay too far right. I stay in the R tire track most of the time, intentionally not getting r enough to give the illusion I want company. so the answer is yes, take the lane, if it is safer for everyone.
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Old 08-17-08, 06:52 AM
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i DO ride like that unless i can't keep up with traffic, but where i ride, it never gets above 30 or 35 : /
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Old 08-17-08, 07:33 AM
  #50  
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I was taught decades ago to keep inside a two-foot-wide area at the right edge of the road, and have never seen a good reason to change.

I'd rather have cars passing me closely than stacking up in a long line behind me. If they're going to pass on a narrow two-lane road where they have to partially cross the yellow center line, I want to give them as much room as possible so they don't have to swing any farther into the opposing traffic's lane than absolutely necessary.
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