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11 Year Old killed

Old 08-22-08, 03:07 PM
  #26  
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The woman was heading east on 13th when the boy darted in front of her, Veil said.

Heh. How convenient.
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Old 08-22-08, 05:08 PM
  #27  
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It's the kids fault for not stopping and looking both ways when crossing a street, not to mention when the street he is crossing is larger than the street he was on. It doesn't matter if there is a stop sign or not, people have to look after their own safety. There is a town in Germany, i believe, where they are testing out how people handle the road when there are no road signs present, and frankly it works pretty well. It's the crap U.S. mentality of I need to speed to get to the red light first which causes all these accidents. Older drivers should not be driving either, and those who are should be subject to yearly random driving exams with the location always changing.

if the old woman ran a stop sign and hit the kid, this would be a tragic accident. Since the kid darted out, what sounds like, right in front of her it's his fault mostly. That driver should be paying attention to the intersection in front of her and if she was she would have easily seen the cyclist since he was heading north and she was heading east.
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Old 08-24-08, 06:03 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by uke View Post
Heh. How convenient.
An 11 year old child is dead, ass-munch.

Having a posse of little kids myself, I can't imagine the anguish of the parents. But I can also see how the accident occurred through no fault of the driver, other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Kids, especially at this age, are very impulsive at not always aware of the dangers surrounding them.
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Old 08-24-08, 07:31 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by dobber View Post
Kids, especially at this age, are very impulsive at not always aware of the dangers surrounding them.
But, as this thread demonstrates, the allegedly "adult" BF expert second guessers/know-it-alls are aware of all the stereotypes, truisms and Conventional Wisdom that surrounds everybody else at every accident/collision when pontificating about fault and/or cause of the tragedy. This thread is filled with hot air from some Real Obnoxious characters totally lacking in empathy.
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Old 08-24-08, 07:58 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by noisebeam View Post
Why? It sounds like the young cyclist did not stop or yield to driver who had row. If he had how could he have been hit?
This is America, you can sue for anything and everything.

Sue the bike company for not having Ultrasonic detectors installed from the factory.
Sue The state for not requiring 65+ YO's retake a drivers exam.
Sue the state for not requiring bicyclist to take a operators exam.
Sue the state for not having stop/yeild/bike/children playing signs.
Sue the state for not having a helmet law if they don't.
Sue the auto maker for not having safe impact zones on the car.
Sue the state for not having bike lanes...

See....John Edwards could be in hog heaven here.
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Old 08-24-08, 08:05 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by dobber View Post
An 11 year old child is dead.
Thanks, Captain Obvious. I didn't really pick that up from the thread title.
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Old 08-24-08, 10:53 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by uke View Post
Thanks, Captain Obvious. I didn't really pick that up from the thread title.
Blow it out your cake hole, jack off
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This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
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Old 08-24-08, 11:22 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by dobber View Post
Blow
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Old 08-24-08, 11:28 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by gascostalot View Post
Wow, pro-helmets actually want this kid to be dead by head trauma so they can use the death for their arguments.

Low people, real low. This is like special level of hell low.
And, amazingly, this post goes even lower than its tortured imaginings of the minds' of others.

There is no doubt in any rational mind that a helmet provides some level of protection.

Would that level of protection have saved a life here? There is, again, no potential for any rational mind to know for sure a helmet would have saved this child's life.

Helmets can sometimes help. Traffic controls can sometimes help. Driver education and testing can sometimes help. Rider education can sometimes help. Separate facilities can sometimes help. Road riding can sometimes help. Even sidewalk riding can sometimes help.

Perhaps this child's death can even help reminds us of our potential for taking action to help kids ride and ride safely.
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Old 08-24-08, 11:33 AM
  #35  
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Just another example with siding with motorists. This is a pretty extreme case.
When I see a bicyclist I SLOW DOWN and WATCH what the kid is about to do.
When I'm on a residential street I drive no faster than 25 mph.
No.
I don't accept that the driver has no charges.
It's not even about age.
It's about the motorist is driving by a park.
It's about the motorist FAILED TO CONTROL HER CAR.
I'm sure this isn't going to end.
I'm sure she'll get harassment the next time ANYONE sees her behind the wheel again.
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Old 08-24-08, 11:47 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Large Filipino View Post
Just another example with siding with motorists. This is a pretty extreme case.
When I see a bicyclist I SLOW DOWN and WATCH what the kid is about to do.
When I'm on a residential street I drive no faster than 25 mph.
No.
I don't accept that the driver has no charges.
It's not even about age.
It's about the motorist is driving by a park.
It's about the motorist FAILED TO CONTROL HER CAR.
I'm sure this isn't going to end.
I'm sure she'll get harassment the next time ANYONE sees her behind the wheel again.

The key wording here is "see a bicyclist". I hear what your saying, I do the same thing. I spot some kids playing around or something near the road, they become the focus of my attention.

But you have to see them. How many times have you had a kid come shooting off a side street or down a driveway. Let's face it, they're not exactly adhering to the rules of the road.

For all we know, the women in question might have an exemplary driving record.
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This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
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Old 08-24-08, 11:50 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Large Filipino View Post
Just another example with siding with motorists. This is a pretty extreme case.
When I see a bicyclist I SLOW DOWN and WATCH what the kid is about to do.
When I'm on a residential street I drive no faster than 25 mph.
No.
I don't accept that the driver has no charges.
It's not even about age.
It's about the motorist is driving by a park.
It's about the motorist FAILED TO CONTROL HER CAR.
I'm sure this isn't going to end.
I'm sure she'll get harassment the next time ANYONE sees her behind the wheel again.
My guess is that at 77 y/o she will quit driving.
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Old 08-24-08, 12:26 PM
  #38  
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What a shame. But, are we to learn something from this? I mean, there are a lot of 77 year old people who are perfectly capable drivers, and there are plenty of 11 year old kids who are quite careful. I don't get the feeling that blame can be assigned from this incident.
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Old 08-24-08, 01:07 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by keiththesnake View Post
What a shame. But, are we to learn something from this? I mean, there are a lot of 77 year old people who are perfectly capable drivers, and there are plenty of 11 year old kids who are quite careful. I don't get the feeling that blame can be assigned from this incident.
You're in the AnS sub-forum, blame is automatic.
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This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
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Old 08-24-08, 02:15 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Large Filipino View Post
Just another example with siding with motorists. This is a pretty extreme case.
When I see a bicyclist I SLOW DOWN and WATCH what the kid is about to do.
When I'm on a residential street I drive no faster than 25 mph.
No.
I don't accept that the driver has no charges.
It's not even about age.
It's about the motorist is driving by a park.
It's about the motorist FAILED TO CONTROL HER CAR.
I'm sure this isn't going to end.
I'm sure she'll get harassment the next time ANYONE sees her behind the wheel again.
As previously stated, if you don't see the cyclist - you can't stop. She had no reason to be slowing down.
There was no indication that she was speeding.

How did she fail to control her car? If a young kind juts out a few feet in front of you, you don't have time to stop. It's an unfortunate accident - but just because she was driving a car doesn't make her guilty of wrong doing.

I hear what you're saying - I just think you're wrong in this case.
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Old 08-24-08, 03:55 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by maddmaxx View Post
Define old?
Put a "Whack-a-Mole" game in every DMV. If an applicant for a DL can't reach a predetermined minimum score, No DL for YOU!

Let the Moles decide who's old.

BTW...in Honduras back in the 80s (maybe now, I don't know), upon reaching 65 years of age your DL automatically becomes void. No driving after 65 whatsoever - so I guess Honduras defines "old" at 65.
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Old 08-25-08, 05:52 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by rickyaustin View Post
How did she fail to control her car? If a young kind juts out a few feet in front of you, you don't have time to stop. It's an unfortunate accident - but just because she was driving a car doesn't make her guilty of wrong doing.

I hear what you're saying - I just think you're wrong in this case.

I would CRASH MY CAR INTO A TREE by TURNING MY WHEEL before I would slam on my breaks and keep my wheel straight and go right into the kid.
Yes. I may be way off but I still have the REFLEXES to avoid the kid.
I would drive off the road before I would hit a kid.
No way.
I do feel sorry for the woman.
But we don't emphasize special driving maneuvers out there.
We take a road test. Some states do this in a parking lot.
Some states don't require to even parallel park.
A road test should involve panic stops.
It should involve if you can control your car under severe conditions.
Yes. I'm dreaming.
But I cannot accept this.
Kids will be kids.
Others have the legal right to drive a 2 ton death machine.
It's okay for a driver to pass you within an inch of your body.
It's okay as long as there's no accident.
And apparently it's okay if they run you over too.

Last edited by Large Filipino; 08-25-08 at 05:56 AM.
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Old 08-25-08, 10:20 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Large Filipino View Post
I would CRASH MY CAR INTO A TREE by TURNING MY WHEEL before I would slam on my breaks and keep my wheel straight and go right into the kid.
Yes. I may be way off but I still have the REFLEXES to avoid the kid.
I would drive off the road before I would hit a kid.

Your apparent grasp of reality is truly pathetic.

If you think this accident might have been avoided by simply turing the steering wheel, you are deluded.

If you think you've got the reflexs to avoid similar situations, please, stay off the road.
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Old 08-25-08, 12:04 PM
  #44  
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Something that seems to be missing in this thread, is the fact that, in many states, the person that gets to the intersection first has the right of way, or the vehicle entering from the right, but since the kid was on a bike, and not in his car, well.....................................
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Old 08-25-08, 12:18 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Put a "Whack-a-Mole" game in every DMV. If an applicant for a DL can't reach a predetermined minimum score, No DL for YOU!

Let the Moles decide who's old.

BTW...in Honduras back in the 80s (maybe now, I don't know), upon reaching 65 years of age your DL automatically becomes void. No driving after 65 whatsoever - so I guess Honduras defines "old" at 65.
Although "Whack-a-Mole" is a pretty ignorant idea, this does point to the necessity of drivers tests, tough and often. Perhaps answering 30 questions on how far away from the curb to park isn't cutting it. On the other hand, from my personal observations, there are not as many young drivers (or bikers) who would pass my test.

Does anyone have any more "real" information on this situation.
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Old 08-25-08, 12:53 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
And, amazingly, this post goes even lower than its tortured imaginings of the minds' of others.

There is no doubt in any rational mind that a helmet provides some level of protection.

Would that level of protection have saved a life here? There is, again, no potential for any rational mind to know for sure a helmet would have saved this child's life.

Helmets can sometimes help. Traffic controls can sometimes help. Driver education and testing can sometimes help. Rider education can sometimes help. Separate facilities can sometimes help. Road riding can sometimes help. Even sidewalk riding can sometimes help.

Perhaps this child's death can even help reminds us of our potential for taking action to help kids ride and ride safely.
I didn't want to enter the helmet argument here, because, imho, it's not what we should be talking about in this instance.

But.
Your commentary about "any rational mind" doesn't hold water. I've been a volunteer ski patroller (think emt on skis) for the last six years and seen my share of head injuries among helmeted and non-helmeted skiers and snowboarders. There have been two well received papers in the last three years seriously drawing into account the efficacy of ski helmets (one is the sugarbush whitepaper, can't recall the name of the other but it came out of sweden or norway if memory serves).

The ski industry (in any wreck involving ski patrol) unlike the bike universe has uniform reporting on helmets and resultingly a much better data set. The conclusions raised two substantial concerns. By an overwhelming number, skiers with helmets were more likely to get killed than non-helmeted skiers. Additionally ski helmets don't help in the types of wrecks where lethal level head injuries happen. Unfortunately we can't get around physics in that the skull is very strong and the fluid around the brain can only mitigate so much deceleration.

Serious skiing wrecks are very similar to bike wrecks in the types of injuries seen, forces and speeds encountered and obstacles that are impacted. Additionally, ski helmets are extremely similar to bike helmets.

That's not to say that bike helmets can't help. My kids wear them and so do I, but I don't kid myself that they are going to do anything in a really serious impact. They help protect against superficial injuries and in some instances can help prevent penetrating injuries by dispersing force (like your skull hitting the edge of a curb). They aren't going to do very much against sudden and severe deceleration.

Last edited by littlewaywelt; 08-25-08 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 08-25-08, 01:07 PM
  #47  
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Are the ski helmets as lightly constructed as bike helmets?
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Old 08-25-08, 01:12 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by phinney View Post
Are the ski helmets as lightly constructed as bike helmets?
Edited my previous post to add that.
Yes they are. A plastic shell surrounding a styrofoam core. The plastic shell is usually a little thicker than a bike helmet's, but the styrofoam liner is often a little thinner. In some cases the shell is carbon fiber, but that's for weight reduction more than anything else.
Ski helmets used to be like motorcycle helmets, heavy and effective, but they led to increased neck injuries.

Ski racers wear helmets not to protect their heads from bad wrecks. They have to by the rules, and the only thing they really do is help protect the head from gate impacts.
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Old 08-25-08, 01:55 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by hurricane harry View Post
Something that seems to be missing in this thread, is the fact that, in many states, the person that gets to the intersection first has the right of way, or the vehicle entering from the right, but since the kid was on a bike, and not in his car, well.....................................
The type of conveyance has nothing to do with right of way regardless of your innuendo. The law that you refer to is applicable in the case of an intersection with stop signs. From the street view in Google, 13th Ave N has no stop signs. 16th St southbound has a stop sign but the northbound access road has none. Why? Street view also shows a white fence with four horizontal rails which could have done a good job of obscuring a drivers view. Also in street view I got a sense that the ground around the creek area was lower than the road. If the child came out of there that also could have been a contributing factor. I scrolled west as far as 23rd St looking for a speed limit sign but saw none. Anyone know what the speed limit is there?
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Old 08-25-08, 02:03 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by OH306 View Post
16th St southbound has a stop sign but the northbound access road has none.
Is it known that the cyclist was traveling northbound on the street labeled as 'S 16th St' on Google Maps?

Assuming so...

" 545.151. VEHICLE APPROACHING OR ENTERING
INTERSECTION.
[cut]
(d) Except as provided in Subsection (e), an operator
approaching an intersection of a street or roadway that is not
controlled by an official traffic-control device:
(1) shall stop, yield, and grant immediate use of the
intersection to a vehicle that has entered the intersection from
the operator's right[0] or is approaching the intersection from the
operator's right[0] in a proximity that is a hazard; and
(2) after stopping, may proceed when the intersection
can be safely entered without interference or collision with
traffic using a different street or roadway."

However there was a stop sign for southbound N 16th St. - does this qualify the intersection as a controlled one?

Al

Last edited by noisebeam; 08-25-08 at 02:17 PM.
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