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This guy is pissed.

Old 08-27-08, 08:38 AM
  #1  
hurricane harry
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This guy is pissed.

https://www.heraldnet.com/article/200...eir.high.horse

Regarding a handful of letters about what bicyclists should do, should wear for safety, how they should behave on roads, licenses they should get and even what taxes they should pay, I respectfully submit the following: Get your own automotive house in order before demanding the cycling-should-do list!

That being said, let's review the list of things drivers should and shouldn't do. You should stop at all red lights and stop signs. You should yield to pedestrians who wish to cross the street. You shouldn't get all liquored up and go out driving only to crash into other parked cars, vans carrying families, pedestrians, trees or large bodies of water.

You should remind yourselves that motor vehicle accidents still top most lists as the leading cause of accidental death. You should pay more attention to the road and stop applying makeup, eating, texting, reading, fiddling with the radio or reaching into the backseat. Perhaps if you were watching the road, checking your blind spots, scanning for hazards, anticipating problems and generally being a truly responsible motor vehicle operator, then those pesky, difficult-to-see cyclists would be more visible.

You should behave so that the term "road-rage" will never be applied to you. As you sit alone in traffic, you should consider car-pooling, taking the bus, a shorter commute or even riding a bike. Perhaps you should investigate the true costs of driving, such as the social costs associated with sprawl-type development, the medical costs of soaring childhood obesity rates and the cost of military spending in oil-rich regions of the world.

Finally, the Toyota Motor Corp. suggested in one of its marketing campaigns that perhaps we should all thank Prius drivers for contributing fewer CO2 emissions. I say, one more thing drivers should do is thank cyclists for simply driving less.

Geoffrey Crofoot
Everett
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Old 08-27-08, 04:42 PM
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Testify!
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Old 08-27-08, 04:56 PM
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This is so old. The same argument is heard in the debate on drugs in cycling, i.e., `sports like baseball, basketball, and football have little or no testing! Stop picking on cycling!` Yes, drivers have a long way to go before everyone is a saint. Same is true for cyclists.

The way you`re talking, things will never change. Cyclists won`t change until drivers change. Drivers won`t change unitl cyclists change. Stalemate. Such `logic` dominates the kindergarten playground.
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Old 08-27-08, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
Cyclists won`t change until drivers change. Drivers won`t change unitl cyclists change. Stalemate. Such `logic` dominates the kindergarten playground.
I'll weigh in.

I'm not changing until they change.

Did somebody say playground!!??
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Old 08-27-08, 06:45 PM
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I already do all I can to ensure the safe travel of myself and others. Time for the recalcitrant drivers to meet me half way.
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Old 08-27-08, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Allister View Post
I already do all I can to ensure the safe travel of myself and others. Time for the recalcitrant drivers to meet me half way.
Thank you very much... this has long been my opinion!

I agree with you 100%.
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Old 08-27-08, 07:24 PM
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well said until that left turn...
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Old 08-27-08, 07:49 PM
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I've long taught my children that you can control your own behavior, but you have little or no control over the behavior of others. The letter is well written and the point is well made, but at its base, it is nothing more than the child's defense.
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Old 08-27-08, 07:53 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
This is so old. The same argument is heard in the debate on drugs in cycling, i.e., `sports like baseball, basketball, and football have little or no testing! Stop picking on cycling!` Yes, drivers have a long way to go before everyone is a saint. Same is true for cyclists.

The way you`re talking, things will never change. Cyclists won`t change until drivers change. Drivers won`t change unitl cyclists change. Stalemate. Such `logic` dominates the kindergarten playground.
Mike,

I don't know about where you ride but when I ride I see hundreds to thousands of automobiles to every one bicycle I see. And those automobiles are far more powerful, have more mass and more killing potential than a peloton of cyclists. And those autos spend far more hours on our roads and highways and travel far more miles than the most avid cyclist.

I'm sorry but the problem is not cyclists. We could remove all cyclists from our highways and we'd still have the problems of congestion, speeding, drunk driving, distracted driving, road rage, uninspected and unsafe vehicles that we have now.

We are so seriously outnumbered and dominated by autos on our roads it's hardly a "stalemate". It might be if the numbers were equal but they are no where near an equivalency.
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Old 08-27-08, 08:00 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by hurricane harry View Post
https://www.heraldnet.com/article/200...eir.high.horse

Regarding a handful of letters about what bicyclists should do, should wear for safety, how they should behave on roads, licenses they should get and even what taxes they should pay, I respectfully submit the following: Get your own automotive house in order before demanding the cycling-should-do list!

That being said, let's review the list of things drivers should and shouldn't do. You should stop at all red lights and stop signs. You should yield to pedestrians who wish to cross the street. You shouldn't get all liquored up and go out driving only to crash into other parked cars, vans carrying families, pedestrians, trees or large bodies of water.

You should remind yourselves that motor vehicle accidents still top most lists as the leading cause of accidental death. You should pay more attention to the road and stop applying makeup, eating, texting, reading, fiddling with the radio or reaching into the backseat. Perhaps if you were watching the road, checking your blind spots, scanning for hazards, anticipating problems and generally being a truly responsible motor vehicle operator, then those pesky, difficult-to-see cyclists would be more visible.

You should behave so that the term "road-rage" will never be applied to you. As you sit alone in traffic, you should consider car-pooling, taking the bus, a shorter commute or even riding a bike. Perhaps you should investigate the true costs of driving, such as the social costs associated with sprawl-type development, the medical costs of soaring childhood obesity rates and the cost of military spending in oil-rich regions of the world.

Finally, the Toyota Motor Corp. suggested in one of its marketing campaigns that perhaps we should all thank Prius drivers for contributing fewer CO2 emissions. I say, one more thing drivers should do is thank cyclists for simply driving less.

Geoffrey Crofoot
Everett
Been wanting to say this myself for some time, but this version is even better, cuz I tend to get a little strident. Well thought-out and expressed.

Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
This is so old. The same argument is heard in the debate on drugs in cycling, i.e., `sports like baseball, basketball, and football have little or no testing! Stop picking on cycling!` Yes, drivers have a long way to go before everyone is a saint. Same is true for cyclists.

The way you`re talking, things will never change. Cyclists won`t change until drivers change. Drivers won`t change unitl cyclists change. Stalemate. Such `logic` dominates the kindergarten playground.
Reading a little bit into it, aren't we?

It comes across to me as: a.)clean up your own backyard; and b.)the Scriptural quote, "remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from your brother's eye."

Drivers need to be told this; there are too too TOO many! drivers out there who are absolutely convinced that their 3000-lb., 150-hp wheeled box gives them divine and supreme right to the road. I have lost count of the times I've been talked down to by drivers because they're driving and I'm riding. 'Excuse me, people, but I know the law better than you do, because I've read it, recently and repeatedly!'

There ARE drivers out there who willingly share the road; I get along great with them! They might lose 5-10 seconds while we share a piece of the road, but we are both people, and we both recognize that. It's the rude, selfish, arrogant hemorrhoids that this letter addresses, and to whom I refer.
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Old 08-27-08, 08:13 PM
  #11  
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That's a pretty good rant. Geoffrey Crofoot missed littering though, cagers litter allot.
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Old 08-27-08, 10:13 PM
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I do everything I can to facilitate the safe and expedient travel of motorists. This includes helping them not kill me, as I would feel guilty if they had that on their conscience.

I would say that a very very small minority of drivers take the needs and desires of other vehicle operators into account as much as most cyclists do. We are constantly worried we might do something to provoke them, because it's happened to most of us so much.

My daughter did a survey of various stop signs and traffic lights to see how many motorists actually obeyed the laws. The results were not good. A majority of stop signs were observed with a rolling stop. If the car was brought to a halt, it was beyond the stop sign. Traffic lights were considerably better, except for right on red. The majority of drivers have absolutely no room to talk.
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Old 08-27-08, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post

...My daughter did a survey of various stop signs and traffic lights to see how many motorists actually obeyed the laws. The results were not good. A majority of stop signs were observed with a rolling stop. If the car was brought to a halt, it was beyond the stop sign. Traffic lights were considerably better, except for right on red. The majority of drivers have absolutely no room to talk.
an informal survey of two stop sign locations near my home in Newton, MA revealed similar results. With similar observations of several notoriously bad right turn on red intersections where cars literally stream through it during the morning commute with nary a stop. In fact, the one car that came to a full stop as I was observing was almost plowed into from the rear and received a blast on the horn of the car behind it in response to it's stopping.

the "cyclists will receive equal treatment when they observe traffic laws just like cars" is a fallacy and one that I find particularly disconcerting when so many cyclists are willing to buy into it.
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Old 08-27-08, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
Mike,

I don't know about where you ride but when I ride I see hundreds to thousands of automobiles to every one bicycle I see. And those automobiles are far more powerful, have more mass and more killing potential than a peloton of cyclists. And those autos spend far more hours on our roads and highways and travel far more miles than the most avid cyclist.

I'm sorry but the problem is not cyclists. We could remove all cyclists from our highways and we'd still have the problems of congestion, speeding, drunk driving, distracted driving, road rage, uninspected and unsafe vehicles that we have now.

We are so seriously outnumbered and dominated by autos on our roads it's hardly a "stalemate". It might be if the numbers were equal but they are no where near an equivalency.

It would seem I live in fantasyland. I`ve been riding in San Diego for the last 25 years and I don`t have any `bad driver` stories. I just don`t get it. Thousands of miles on mountain roads, up and down the coast, and I don`t see what the problem is. I`ve not been cut off, hit, had anything thrown at me, or been the subject of physical threat. I keep my eyes peeled, stop at signs and lights (yes, that means putting a foot down), defer to drivers regardless of what the letter of the law says, and pretty much just enjoy my rides.

I guess my situation is so far from the norm that my posts rightly fall on deaf ears. I can only smile at my good fortune. To everyone else, I say...good luck. Cheers.
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Old 08-27-08, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
It would seem I live in fantasyland. I`ve been riding in San Diego for the last 25 years and I don`t have any `bad driver` stories. I just don`t get it. Thousands of miles on mountain roads, up and down the coast, and I don`t see what the problem is. I`ve not been cut off, hit, had anything thrown at me, or been the subject of physical threat. I keep my eyes peeled, stop at signs and lights (yes, that means putting a foot down), defer to drivers regardless of what the letter of the law says, and pretty much just enjoy my rides.

I guess my situation is so far from the norm that my posts rightly fall on deaf ears. I can only smile at my good fortune. To everyone else, I say...good luck. Cheers.

Mike,

In addition to riding a bicycle do you also occasionally drive an automobile? If so, has it also been for 25 years and have you never once been cut off, had an accident (even a fender bender), or even witnessed an automobile accident or an incident of bad driving?

As for me, I've got almost 40 years of adult cycling under my belt with several trips across the US and Canada, countless of miles on tours, racing and training throughout New England, ridden in several European countries and have commuted since I was 16 to every job I've had until my present age of 54. I have, fortunately (and I count my blessings every day), a few fairly minor brushes with cars while on my bike but have been cut off, sworn at, spat upon, had objects thrown at me, had one gun pointed at me from a car window, and witnessed incidents of bad driving too numerous too count.

I, too, observe traffic laws, though admittedly not to the letter- I do not always "put my foot down", which is, incidently not mandatory. I ride with lights and reflective garb at night. I don't know if I always "defer" to automobiles- I'm not sure what that means. If it means keeping as far to the right as practical I do so but "practical" can mean the left hand lane if I'm making a left turn.

I'll accept your description of living in a "fantasy land" as the only possible explanation. The only other, far less flattering, possibility is that you have a self-inflated image of your own invincibility as a cyclist due to the squeaky clean perfect way you ride as opposed to those of us who might be considered the unenlightened and great unwashed- and that couldn't possibly be true, could it?
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Old 08-28-08, 12:28 AM
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Hi buzz,

Yes, I`m a driver. I drive to work every morning. Had a wreck a few years back...t-boned a guy. Sucked. I was driving home late one night, residential road, guy ran a stop sign, and...bamn. Ouch. Yes, there are bad drivers. Things happen.

San Diego is the safest place on earth. Or so it seems. Quite apart from me being invincible or having an over-inflated self image, I really do believe it`s because people here are bike friendly. I understand that not every place is the same.

There`s not a whole hell of a lot I can do if I`m riding down the road and a driver runs me over. That it hasn`t happened has nothing to do with my `skills` and everything to do with drivers being cool and paying attention. That I`ve never been slammed by a driver running a red light, well, that`s just good luck. I guess in Florida and North Carolina it`s fairly common for drivers to run lights. I`ve read many posts saying as much. Riding a bike sounds a bit like going into battle. More power to cyclists in such places. I wish them well.

I don`t know what to say. I assume I live in a bike friendly place. If there are other San Diego people reading this post, maybe you can share some of your life threatening experiences? Most of my rides are towards east county (94, Dulzura, Tecate, Dogpatch, Campo, Buckman Springs, Alpine, etc.

Buzzman, I`m not trying to be a jerk. I`m simply telling you my experience. If I made claims of jumping over cars using my super powers or having some extra heightened sense about being able to read a driver`s mind, well, your last paragraph might hold some water. It doesn`t. I don`t do anything out of the ordinary. I ride my bike and have thus far had the good luck of being left alone.
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Old 08-28-08, 12:33 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
... This includes helping them not kill me, as I would feel guilty if they had that on their conscience. ...
How do you feel guilty if you are dead?
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Old 08-28-08, 07:04 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mikescda
I drive to work every morning.
staying in a car during your commute insulates you from the worst times to ride a bike in any autocentric urban grid.

yeah, a lot of motorists have hypercritical views of bicyclists. society should police the motorists better, bicyclists are not the grave danger to the public like motor vehicles.

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Old 08-28-08, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
Hi buzz,

Yes, I`m a driver. I drive to work every morning. Had a wreck a few years back...t-boned a guy. Sucked. I was driving home late one night, residential road, guy ran a stop sign, and...bamn. Ouch. Yes, there are bad drivers. Things happen.

San Diego is the safest place on earth. Or so it seems. Quite apart from me being invincible or having an over-inflated self image, I really do believe it`s because people here are bike friendly. I understand that not every place is the same.

There`s not a whole hell of a lot I can do if I`m riding down the road and a driver runs me over. That it hasn`t happened has nothing to do with my `skills` and everything to do with drivers being cool and paying attention. That I`ve never been slammed by a driver running a red light, well, that`s just good luck. I guess in Florida and North Carolina it`s fairly common for drivers to run lights. I`ve read many posts saying as much. Riding a bike sounds a bit like going into battle. More power to cyclists in such places. I wish them well.

I don`t know what to say. I assume I live in a bike friendly place. If there are other San Diego people reading this post, maybe you can share some of your life threatening experiences? Most of my rides are towards east county (94, Dulzura, Tecate, Dogpatch, Campo, Buckman Springs, Alpine, etc.

Buzzman, I`m not trying to be a jerk. I`m simply telling you my experience. If I made claims of jumping over cars using my super powers or having some extra heightened sense about being able to read a driver`s mind, well, your last paragraph might hold some water. It doesn`t. I don`t do anything out of the ordinary. I ride my bike and have thus far had the good luck of being left alone.
this last post seems more related to reality- and far less judgemental to those of us who don't share your "luck".

Maybe you do live in a bike friendly city/area and I'm sure that has a lot to do with your perspective. That you drive to work each morning and, I assume, drive home at the end of each work day you are not, like many of us who bike commute, exposed to traffic during commuting hours on a daily basis. In my experience, a completely different riding experience than when I do an early Sunday training ride on quiet roads outside of the more congested city.

But even when we ride in the most idyllic of circumstances we are not immune. I recently rode a 116 mile ride all on rural roads- 80 miles of them dirt road where a car or two every hour was about average. Oddly enough I expected this ride to be "safer". While most of the drivers were only too accommodating to make room on these narrow 19th century paths there were two or three drivers over the course of the day that ripped down these roads at 50+ mph kicking up dust, gravel and coming remarkably too close for comfort.

As Bek points out we live in an autocentric culture. Bicyclists represent less than 3% of road users in the most bike friendly of commuting cities. The national average in all areas is probably close to .045%. The flap caused when some of these cyclists occasionally run a stop sign is out of proportion to reality to say the least. The additional fact that cyclists are transporting themselves under their own power on machines that weigh less than 30 lbs and moving at less than 20 mph on average makes them so much less of a threat than machines weighing 3500 lbs and capable of high speeds at rapid rates of acceleration.

When every time a cyclist is seriously injured or killed, even when through driver error, or worse, through driver intent, we are reminded that "cyclists break traffic laws" and told to "clean up our act" it's so ridiculously far outside of reality and all cyclists should stand shoulder to shoulder to counter such propaganda.
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Old 08-28-08, 09:00 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by mikesdca View Post
Hi buzz,

Yes, I`m a driver. I drive to work every morning. Had a wreck a few years back...t-boned a guy. Sucked. I was driving home late one night, residential road, guy ran a stop sign, and...bamn. Ouch. Yes, there are bad drivers. Things happen.

San Diego is the safest place on earth. Or so it seems. Quite apart from me being invincible or having an over-inflated self image, I really do believe it`s because people here are bike friendly. I understand that not every place is the same.

There`s not a whole hell of a lot I can do if I`m riding down the road and a driver runs me over. That it hasn`t happened has nothing to do with my `skills` and everything to do with drivers being cool and paying attention. That I`ve never been slammed by a driver running a red light, well, that`s just good luck. I guess in Florida and North Carolina it`s fairly common for drivers to run lights. I`ve read many posts saying as much. Riding a bike sounds a bit like going into battle. More power to cyclists in such places. I wish them well.

I don`t know what to say. I assume I live in a bike friendly place. If there are other San Diego people reading this post, maybe you can share some of your life threatening experiences? Most of my rides are towards east county (94, Dulzura, Tecate, Dogpatch, Campo, Buckman Springs, Alpine, etc.

Buzzman, I`m not trying to be a jerk. I`m simply telling you my experience. If I made claims of jumping over cars using my super powers or having some extra heightened sense about being able to read a driver`s mind, well, your last paragraph might hold some water. It doesn`t. I don`t do anything out of the ordinary. I ride my bike and have thus far had the good luck of being left alone.
I am from San Diego, and have been cycling in the area since about 1976. I lived car free for some 7 years while living in the City Heights and Lemon Grove areas. This was prior to 1987. During that time, I rode a bike everywhere... from commutes to long weekly rides to Carlsbad or Dulzura. I never had issues on the long rides, which took place on early Saturdays or Sundays... the traffic was not heavy during those times, (sometimes no traffic) and I found co-operation from motorists.

I also toured both here and in Mexico throughout the 80s and early 90s. I never had problems at those times. I remember once while in Texas, having a long conversation with a shop keeper and discussing that one motorist could ruin my whole trip... but it never happened... in fact, even the various police I met on my trips bent over backward for me. (I have some great stories).

Nearly the only times I have had problems are during commutes, or in one particular area of town (the latter quite interesting actually). During commutes I have been hit by motorists 3 times, been threatened, been yelled at numerous times, been buzzed, and had stuff thrown at me.

Where I currently live, in the Clairemont Mesa area, sadly I have even been harassed on an otherwise empty 6 lane arterial road on an otherwise quiet Sunday morning, three times. Now consider this... a 6 lane road, 35 MPH speed limit, no bike lane, but parked cars along the sides... virtually no traffic, early Sunday and me returning on this road (Clairemont Mesa Blvd... since you live in the area) to my home near Genesee after a 20 or 30 mile local loop... I am riding along in the right lane (remember, no BL) and a motorist chooses to not just drive right past me on this empty road (no other cars in sight) but decides to come up behind me and honk rudely (not your beep beep, but a long annoying honk). Now there is plenty of empty road, and yet this hassle occurs. I just don't get it. And this has happened three times just like this (different motorists) in the past 7 years.

Now lest you think these are rare isolated incidents... I regularly get honked at or buzzed (reving engine) or yelled at in this area near my home when I am on CMB. I ride in the street as do the other rare fast cyclists that ride though, but there are lots of sidewalk cyclists in the area. (I believe motorists think we are supposed to use the sidewalk)

Further, I have also encountered motorists just acting stupid due to my presence... motorists that violently cross double yellows (excessive display of power) to get around me on 25MPH residential streets, motorists using the wrong lanes to get around me (right turn only to go straight, or center through to make right turns) and other similar acts.

Now no one has hit me intentionally, and I never encountered harassment of this sort in the east county when commuting from Lemon Grove to El Cajon or SDSU (which I did for 8 years). I have found this situation primarily in the "golden triangle" area. (although I also had some "encounters" in Southeast San Diego when commuting to Point Loma years ago)

So while the area has some great cycling (54 to Dehesa to Alpine being one of my favorite rides) I would hardly call it a "fantasyland." The weather here is perfect for year round cycling... so one would think cycling would be used more here for things like short errand trips or short commutes... but San Diego has no more ridership than any other area in the US. (and considerably less than rainy Portland)

The real irony for me is that while I was taking both Road 1 and Road 2, back about 4 years ago (mostly out of curiosity, but also to see if there were pointers I could pick up even after all my years of cycling) I was honked at by motorists for doing perfectly legal and safe cycling on my bike.

You want "fantasyland," try Oulu Finland... where drivers stop before making right turns, to check for cyclists; where an extensive path system exists that allows cyclists access to the entire town on paths that have advantages over roads (roads go around, paths are the shortcut) and are grade separated from the roadways. The town center is a car free zone. The paths even go to the airport. Now that is "fantasyland." I couldn't believe such a system as extensive as that in Oulu could even really exist... it was on par with Autotopia in Disneyland... but for cyclists. BTW some 28 percent of all trips in Finland are by bike, verses the what 1% or so here in America... now that is "fantasyland."

For a small taste of a similar path here in San Diego, try out the 56 bike path... it parallels the new hiway 56 and in several areas runs below the cross streets, is some 10 feet wide, and has "ramps" that connect it with area streets; it even has it's own bridge over a canyon. This is not typical of the paths in this area which are often narrow and are in poor repair (the Rose Canyon shortcut as a prime example).

So mikesdca, I'd hardly call San Diego a "fantasyland," although I do have to admit, in some places, it can be quite nice, in others... well, I've told my tales.


BTW as a full disclosure, I have not been on a bike since April 2008 due to health problems... and have not commuted for a year, since the last Bike to Work day. I recently had surgery to correct my foot problems and hope to be back on my bike in a couple of months... no doubt starting slowly, and working my way back to full commuting and fun cycling once again; in spite of all my ranting, I really do miss cycling.

Last edited by genec; 08-28-08 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 08-28-08, 09:35 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Allister View Post
I already do all I can to ensure the safe travel of myself and others. Time for the recalcitrant drivers to meet me half way.
Every day I see hundreds of cars pass me on US Route 20 and other similar routes, often moving well into the lane of oncoming traffic when it is NOT NECESSARY TO DO SO. (meaning the shoulder already gives me more than enough room). Seems to me the vast majority if drivers are doing more than enough.


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Old 08-28-08, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post
Every day I see hundreds of cars pass me on US Route 20 and other similar routes, often moving well into the lane of oncoming traffic when it is NOT NECESSARY TO DO SO. (meaning the shoulder already gives me more than enough room). Seems to me the vast majority if drivers are doing more than enough.


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I'm very pleased with my neighbors here in central Pennsylvania. I feel more endangered in my car sometimes, like this morning when I was halfway through an intersection and a car made a left turn in front of me. It was such a crazy stunt I'm now wondering if they were on the cellphone.

I have seen some incredibly rude drivers here, but nothing like 30 years ago in Virginia. I guess it depends on how ready to be offended you are.
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Old 08-28-08, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post
Every day I see hundreds of cars pass me on US Route 20 and other similar routes, often moving well into the lane of oncoming traffic when it is NOT NECESSARY TO DO SO. (meaning the shoulder already gives me more than enough room). Seems to me the vast majority if drivers are doing more than enough.


roughstuff
don't get me wrong. I ride Route 20 and 23 and 8 lots of fairly heavily traveled routes in Western MA with similar positive experiences. But I've also been shouted at and buzzed on those roads. By far the majority of my rides are very pleasant experiences and the road is shared- I don't mean to give the impression it's a complete jungle out there.

It's that one out of a hundred driver that makes it bad for us.

Where are you riding by the way? Hopefully, route 20 west of Westfield. I'm not real keen on Rte. 20 Springfield and east.

Maybe I'll see you out there. I'm going to do my Otis/Montery loop today- I'll look for ya'!
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Old 08-28-08, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I'm very pleased with my neighbors here in central Pennsylvania. I feel more endangered in my car sometimes, like this morning when I was halfway through an intersection and a car made a left turn in front of me. It was such a crazy stunt I'm now wondering if they were on the cellphone.

I have seen some incredibly rude drivers here, but nothing like 30 years ago in Virginia. I guess it depends on how ready to be offended you are.

I'd be pleased with the folks in Pennsylvania too. I toured all over Pennsylvania this summer (except in the urban rot of Philly, Pittsburgh, etc) and rarely have I felt more comfy on the road. As you know, there are some darn steep hills in your state, and I had so many people beeping their horns and giving me thumbs up as I reached the summits that I regretted not being able to take my hands of the bars and return the gesture. Never saw so many small state parks and forest preserves/fishing access areas where I could wild camp.

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Old 08-28-08, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
don't get me wrong. I ride Route 20 and 23 and 8 lots of fairly heavily traveled routes in Western MA with similar positive experiences. But I've also been shouted at and buzzed on those roads. By far the majority of my rides are very pleasant experiences and the road is shared- I don't mean to give the impression it's a complete jungle out there.

It's that one out of a hundred driver that makes it bad for us.

Where are you riding by the way? Hopefully, route 20 west of Westfield. I'm not real keen on Rte. 20 Springfield and east.

Maybe I'll see you out there. I'm going to do my Otis/Montery loop today- I'll look for ya'!
It was 20/23, which I do once or twice a day as my training ride, up the hill and then back down via Knox road and others. I haven't been buzzed, but there are cars that yell at ya. These yahoos should be back in school soon though.

Rt 20 as ya go toward springfield from westfield is awful. Two lanes, no shoulder, potholes and lots of driveways and side streets.

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