Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Animal Transport vs. the Bicycle?

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Animal Transport vs. the Bicycle?

Old 02-17-09, 10:27 AM
  #1  
Cully_J
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Appleton, Wisconsin
Posts: 49

Bikes: I own a Sun EZ-3 recumbent trike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Animal Transport vs. the Bicycle?

In a recent thread I asked the question if people are seeing an increase in cycling due to increasing gasoline prices. Many people have notice more - but not many - people cycling.

I think the automobile has been a strong, numbing drug to modern society. It made us accustomed to traveling long distances without exerting any physical effort (pressing down on the gas pedal and flicking the turn signal doesn't count). Because of this, I'm sure we'll see more people using animals for transportation.

I wonder exactly what we'll see. I'm sure horses will be used. Donkeys? Ostiches!?!?

Cullen
Cully_J is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 10:38 AM
  #2  
crackerdog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Port Townsend, WA
Posts: 982

Bikes: xtracycle, electric recumbent, downtube folder and more

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I don't think animals will be used because we no longer live in an agronomic society and it takes huge amounts of effort and land to keep animals. Not to mention animal agriculture puts out huge amounts of greenhouse gases.
crackerdog is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 10:46 AM
  #3  
beetz12
Carbon FTW
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 191
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
People will ride elephants!

No... I seriously doubt animals will become our preferred choice of transportation any time soon.

Although you're no longer spending money on gas, you're now spending it on other things - like feed, vet bills, destroyed lawns, etc.

And who wants to arrive at work soaking wet when it's raining, or smelling like a donkey on a hot summer day? The bottom line: animal transport in the US today is impractical.

I really hope you were joking.
beetz12 is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 10:52 AM
  #4  
-=(8)=-
♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯
 
-=(8)=-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 40205 'ViLLeBiLLie
Posts: 7,902

Bikes: Sngl Spd's, 70's- 80's vintage, D-tube Folder

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Cully_J View Post
In a recent thread I asked the question if people are seeing an increase in cycling due to increasing gasoline prices. Many people have notice more - but not many - people cycling.

I think the automobile has been a strong, numbing drug to modern society. It made us accustomed to traveling long distances without exerting any physical effort
I dont think animals will be used because people have come to regard them as
icky and too hi-maintenance. They'd rather developers just kill them off.

Another peripheral implication of our auto-centric society is the dehumanization of it.
Cars, along with the internet, have taken alot of 'human-ness'(?) out of our society
and replaced it with anonymity and apathy towards other people. They are now just
obstacles in 'MY' way that keep from getting where I NEED to go.......
__________________
-ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"
-=(8)=- is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 12:17 PM
  #5  
Pat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 2,794

Bikes: litespeed, cannondale

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Horses really are not a good option. It takes some time to put the saddle and bridle on a horse. A horse eats quite a bit. Also there are the consequences of eating. A horse requires considerable care. Another thing, you have to know what you are doing around horses. Horses a very powerful and can easily hurt you quite seriously without intending to.

When you compare the ease of use bicycles to horses, bikes come off really well.
Pat is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 01:15 PM
  #6  
wirehead
Senior Member
 
wirehead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Also remember that the over-use of animal transportation in the movies is largely to make the narrative fit with our modern car-centric society.

People used to walk. The bike was very much an upgrade. The horse was just there for when you really really really needed speed and/or carrying capacity.
wirehead is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 02:31 PM
  #7  
trekker pete
pedalphile
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 1,034

Bikes: trek 1200, 520, Giant ATX 970, Raleigh Talon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
At 10 bucks a gallon, driving a car is still way cheaper than keeping a horse/ostrich/turtle/etc...

Animals are expensive to keep and really not a very good way of dragging people around.

A bicycle is much cheaper and in most cases, much faster than riding any sort of critter.

A multimillion dollar thorougbred with a midget, uuhhh, I mean a jockey on its back is a little bit faster than a decent cyclist on a decent bike. Make the race much more than a mile and the cyclist is actually faster.
trekker pete is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 02:48 PM
  #8  
mconlonx 
Str*t*gic *quivoc*tor
 
mconlonx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,552
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7068 Post(s)
Liked 74 Times in 52 Posts
Look to the third world. In cities, bicycles everywhere; out in the country, animals still used for transport.

I imagine that would be the way it goes in a first world SHTF situation... at some point after starvation kills off a lot of the population and things have leveled off a bit.

I lived in a situation where I had access to and could easily have ridden a horse to work. At work, there was a barn that had actually been used to board a horse, plenty of pasture there for a horse to graze on. About a 7 mi commute. And yet for some reason, every day I didn't take a car or motorcycle, I opted for a bicycle rather than the horse...

And it would be tough to get PETA on board with a shift to animal transportation...
__________________
I know next to nothing. I am frequently wrong.
mconlonx is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 02:53 PM
  #9  
dondonaldo
Knotwright
 
dondonaldo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: La Crosse, WI
Posts: 36
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Food for thought:


Dimitri Orlov, giving a speech at the Long Now Foundation, Social Collapse Best Practices, points to two winners of the coming era of fuel shortage:

One final transportation idea: start breeding donkeys. Horses are finicky and expensive, but donkeys can be very cost-effective and make good pack animals. My grandfather had a donkey while he was living in Tashkent in Central Asia during World War II. There was nothing much for the donkey to eat, but, as a member of the Communist Party, my grandfather had a subscription to Pravda, the Communist Party newspaper, and so thatís what the donkey ate. Apparently, donkeys can digest any kind of cellulose, even when itís loaded with communist propaganda. If I had a donkey, I would feed it the Wall Street Journal.
dondonaldo is offline  
Old 02-17-09, 03:49 PM
  #10  
WPeabody 
Senior Member
 
WPeabody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Monterey Bay area, California
Posts: 523

Bikes: Terratrike Tour, recumbent tadpole tricycle.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dondonaldo View Post
Food for thought:
One final transportation idea: start breeding donkeys. Horses are finicky and expensive, but donkeys can be very cost-effective and make good pack animals. My grandfather had a donkey while he was living in Tashkent in Central Asia during World War II. There was nothing much for the donkey to eat, but, as a member of the Communist Party, my grandfather had a subscription to Pravda, the Communist Party newspaper, and so that’s what the donkey ate. Apparently, donkeys can digest any kind of cellulose, even when it’s loaded with communist propaganda. If I had a donkey, I would feed it the Wall Street Journal.
Or the New York Times.

Donkeys are amazingly patient and tough creatures, but...

[



Bicycles are the most efficient mode of transportation, next to that, freight trains.
__________________
What do you call a cyclist who sells potpourri on the road? A pedaling petal-peddler.

Last edited by WPeabody; 02-17-09 at 04:04 PM. Reason: added another pic
WPeabody is offline  
Old 02-18-09, 06:29 AM
  #11  
trekker pete
pedalphile
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: ellington, ct
Posts: 1,034

Bikes: trek 1200, 520, Giant ATX 970, Raleigh Talon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Donkeys are good for moving supplies relatively short distances. As a means of transporting people, not so much. Just as quick to walk.

One other thing. Road condition. If we still have decent paved roads after the apocalypse hits, bikes will still make sense. If not, the roadies sure will be pissed. The bike vs animal transportation comparison becomes more valid.

MTBers sure will love it though.

Last edited by trekker pete; 02-18-09 at 08:32 AM.
trekker pete is offline  
Old 02-18-09, 10:00 AM
  #12  
Newspaperguy
Senior Member
 
Newspaperguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 2,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
For reasons already stated, I don't envision people replacing their cars with horses. But it could be possible, if fuel prices rise dramatically, to see horse-drawn wagons serving as short-distance taxi or transit services in certain areas. Before this would happen, we would first need to see a change in attitudes towards transportation. We'd have to see more people become willing to use public transportation options — something that won't happen until vehicle ownership and use becomes much more expensive and more more inconvenient.
Newspaperguy is offline  
Old 02-18-09, 12:39 PM
  #13  
njkayaker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 12,116
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2571 Post(s)
Liked 409 Times in 282 Posts
Animals as transport would only work "well" in low-population situations.

Animals are more expensive, less convenient, and much more messy than alternatives.
njkayaker is offline  
Old 02-18-09, 03:40 PM
  #14  
crhilton
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,568

Bikes: '07 Trek 1500, '08 Surly Cross Check, '09 Masi Speciale Sprint custom build

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
We don't need animals as long as we can still run the cement trucks. Thankfully we have other methods than oil to run the cement trucks.

Animals are not something you want. You may not know this but they drop bacteria all over the place. Smelly bacteria farms called: "poop"
crhilton is offline  
Old 02-18-09, 04:31 PM
  #15  
CommuterRun
Conservative Hippie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Wakulla Co. FL
Posts: 4,271
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have a little experience with horses. Bicycles are a whole lot less trouble and expense. If for some reason I ever need a draft animal in the future I'll be looking for a mule. An Okinawan water buffalo would be cool to have, in the right location; like Okinawa.
CommuterRun is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 11:18 AM
  #16  
jeph
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: sebtown
Posts: 192
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dondonaldo View Post
Food for thought:


Dimitri Orlov, giving a speech at the Long Now Foundation, Social Collapse Best Practices, points to two winners of the coming era of fuel shortage:

One final transportation idea: start breeding donkeys. Horses are finicky and expensive, but donkeys can be very cost-effective and make good pack animals. My grandfather had a donkey while he was living in Tashkent in Central Asia during World War II. There was nothing much for the donkey to eat, but, as a member of the Communist Party, my grandfather had a subscription to Pravda, the Communist Party newspaper, and so thatís what the donkey ate. Apparently, donkeys can digest any kind of cellulose, even when itís loaded with communist propaganda. If I had a donkey, I would feed it the Wall Street Journal.
I like it. The NY post would be a good one. Too bad it couldn't eat video or audio. Love to see the remains of a Limbaugh show laying in the street
jeph is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 12:03 PM
  #17  
wahoonc
Membership Not Required
 
wahoonc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855

Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by crhilton View Post
We don't need animals as long as we can still run the cement trucks. Thankfully we have other methods than oil to run the cement trucks.

Animals are not something you want. You may not know this but they drop bacteria all over the place. Smelly bacteria farms called: "poop"
You are going to need something to run the cement manufacturing facilities too. They are very energy intensive.

Read up on what happened to Cuba after the fall of the Soviet Union and how they overcame their immediate transportation needs. I cannot find the link at the moment, but they imported a huge number of Flying Pigeon type bikes, forced car pooling, and used a modified cattle trailer (at least that is what it looked like to me) towed behind a mid sized truck as a bus. Humans are very resourceful...once they get past the; "me first, you owe me, where is mine" stage.

Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
_Nicodemus

"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
_krazygluon
wahoonc is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 12:38 PM
  #18  
Cyclaholic
CRIKEY!!!!!!!
 
Cyclaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: all the way down under
Posts: 4,268

Bikes: several

Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1192 Post(s)
Liked 230 Times in 134 Posts
Originally Posted by jeph View Post
I like it. The NY post would be a good one. Too bad it couldn't eat video or audio. Love to see the remains of a Limbaugh show laying in the street
indistinguishable from its pre-digested form
__________________
May the m(dv/dt) be with you.
Cyclaholic is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 12:04 PM
  #19  
gcottay
Senior Member
 
gcottay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Green Valley AZ
Posts: 3,770

Bikes: Trice Q; Volae Century; TT 3.4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Domestic cats, even large, strong ones, do not seem to be good transportation alternatives.
gcottay is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 02:08 PM
  #20  
BarracksSi
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Jay Leno, of all people, made this point when he appeared on Top Gear (the best car-centric program on TV) to give his opinion of Honda's FCX Clarity hydrogen-powered car --

"Car enthusiasts think, 'Oh, this is going to be awful.' No, it won't -- it'll save the petrol, it'll save your MG or your Sprite or your Midget or whatever you have. And you go out on the weekend and you have fun, and you put this in your car park during the week. Much like the automobile was the savior of the horse. You know, in the cities, at least in America, the horses would be whipped, and they'd drop dead. And then, when the car came along, it freed up the horse to be used for recreational purposes and 'for the beauty of the animal' or whatever you wanna call it."

I've never lived in a city that used animals all over the place for transport, and I really don't want to start. There are better ways to get stuff done (including, like crhilton said back in post #14, other methods to power heavy equipment like cement trucks).
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 04:44 PM
  #21  
RobertHurst
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,621
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by BarracksSi View Post
Jay Leno, of all people, made this point when he appeared on Top Gear (the best car-centric program on TV) to give his opinion of Honda's FCX Clarity hydrogen-powered car --....
Hydrogen fuel cell-powered Honda FCX the car of the future? There might be some differences of opinion on that. Top Gear host is correct that the big flaw of electric vehicles is the limitations of the battery in relation to the tremendous weight of the type of vehicles that people want to drive. They take a long time to charge and then don't travel far on a charge and thus promise to restrict business-as-usual in some ways relative to the current guzzlers. But hydrogen fuel-cell cars also have a terrible flaw -- it takes a great deal of energy to 'make' the hydrogen, compress and store it. According to Ulf Bossel it takes about four times as much total energy to power a car through electricity generated from a hydrogen fuel cell than to power it with a battery hooked directly to the grid.

From an energy standpoint, hydrogen cars make little sense. Maybe it's a good bet then, that we will go into hydrogen whole hog. Yes I am cynical about America's energy future. We have been so stupid about it, and it looks like that will continue.
RobertHurst is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 04:53 PM
  #22  
BarracksSi
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Maybe I should've highlighted my (his) main point a little more strongly:

Originally Posted by BarracksSi View Post
You know, in the cities, at least in America, the horses would be whipped, and they'd drop dead.
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 05:23 PM
  #23  
wahoonc
Membership Not Required
 
wahoonc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: On the road-USA
Posts: 16,855

Bikes: Giant Excursion, Raleigh Sports, Raleigh R.S.W. Compact, Motobecane? and about 20 more! OMG

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 68 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 5 Posts
I don't see widespread use of animals in a city setting. Perhaps for the farmers bringing food in from the country. Mass transit, walking and bicycles make the most sense for short distance trips. But it is going to be a long hard transition.

I read an article a while back that was in an archive somewhere about the major issue of people abandoning dead horses on the streets of NYC and the cost to the taxpayers. It was a sizable problem not to mention a public health nightmare. Then there was the issues of how to dispose of the carcasses. At one point IIRC they were dumping them in the Hudson River, but that was causing problems too, when they floated back in on the tide.

Aaron
__________________
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
_Nicodemus

"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
_krazygluon
wahoonc is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 05:26 PM
  #24  
BarracksSi
Bike ≠ Car ≠ Ped.
 
BarracksSi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 13,861

Bikes: Some bikes. Hell, they're all the same, ain't they?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
[tangent]

Originally Posted by RobertHurst View Post
Top Gear host is correct that the big flaw of electric vehicles is the limitations of the battery in relation to the tremendous weight of the type of vehicles that people want to drive. They take a long time to charge and then don't travel far on a charge and thus promise to restrict business-as-usual in some ways relative to the current guzzlers.
It's a huge flaw. In any regular car available today, I could drive 1200 miles back to my hometown nearly on a whim. All I have to do along the way is buy gas, food, and a place to sleep (if I don't want to sleep in the car, at least). Twenty hours of driving and I'm done -- and for cheaper than a plane ticket or Amtrak, and much faster than Greyhound.

That's just not going to happen with a rechargeable electric car. Say that I got one anyway. I'd have to leave it in DC while I rented something else for the drive. Or maybe I actually own a second car for when the electric is out of juice. So, then, what sense does the electric car make? Not much, really.

I don't need two cars (many BF'ers would argue that I don't need any). I don't want two cars. Give me just one that will keep going until I get tired.

But hydrogen fuel-cell cars also have a terrible flaw -- it takes a great deal of energy to 'make' the hydrogen, compress and store it. According to Ulf Bossel it takes about four times as much total energy to power a car through electricity generated from a hydrogen fuel cell than to power it with a battery hooked directly to the grid.
But again, where that energy comes from is just as important. If it's using natural gas (which Honda's home hydrogen station still uses), it's not a whole lot better than oil or coal. If it's using wind, solar, geothermal, or water power, it's an improvement. It wouldn't even be prohibitively more expensive than gasoline.

At this point, rather than yammering on about what's going to be the fuel of choice for the next hundred years, which, if we're being honest about it, is a pretty pointless discussion for those of us who aren't actually trying to DO it, I'd rather take a ride in a time machine to see what we end up with.

[/tangent]
BarracksSi is offline  
Old 02-22-09, 05:29 PM
  #25  
Richard_Rides
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Santa Clarita, CA
Posts: 1,371
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
When the collapse of society comes, and in that post apocalyptic world there is no electricity or water or sewer services, we will be forced to go back to gaudy chariots and horse drawn wagons. Aside from mere transportation, animals will increase in value. I'm most certain that cannibalism will be rampant and any man or animal seen walking about in the open will be immediately killed and eaten raw.

The human population will be decimated by global pandemics of cholera and various plagues, heretofore unseen for centuries. Few bicycles will exist in the rusting monochromatic landscape of our future, their frames having been cut up and fashioned into weapons...

Animals will be the only transportation available, but good animals such as horses and donkeys will be in short supply. Probably the most likely animal will be the camel.

Last edited by Richard_Rides; 02-22-09 at 05:33 PM.
Richard_Rides is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.