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Dead Right

Old 03-02-09, 01:59 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by gosmsgo View Post
I doubt you have much experience with proper lane positioning then.


Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.
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Old 03-02-09, 02:03 PM
  #27  
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Please, let's NOT turn this into a VC topic/issue. If it is I will shut down the thread, have it deleted, etc.
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Old 03-02-09, 02:08 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post


Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.
I'm just going to ignore you as to not make this a vc argument.
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Old 03-02-09, 02:40 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post
Generally, you can't control a driver's behavior by your lane positioning.

If anything, the only difference that your lane positioning makes, in my experience, is that it infuriates some drivers enough to the point that they want to f with you when they pass.
That's interesting. In my experience, an aggressive lane position reduces the rate of conflicts I have with motorists.

Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?
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Old 03-02-09, 02:55 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
That's interesting. In my experience, an aggressive lane position reduces the rate of conflicts I have with motorists.

Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?

His experiences are so far beyond the norm that I quit arguing with him. I figured he did not have adequate information to make an informed statement.

Regardless, this was a great report.
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Old 03-02-09, 03:11 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by ChipSeal View Post
Secondly, doesn't the first sentence in your post contradict the last sentence?
Without turning this into a VC debate, which would banish this thread into the VC ghetto...

No, for two reasons. First, I said you can't "control" a driver's behavior (in the first sentence). In the last sentence, I was referring to the reaction drivers have to aggressive lane positioning, rather than my "control" of those drivers.

Second, I qualified my first sentence with the word "generally." The exception to that generalization that you can't control a driver's behavior is that, in my experience, aggressive (or "proper") lane positioning triggers more aggressive behavior in some drivers, while riding to the right does not trigger that aggressive behavior. Therefore, as an exception to that generalization, to the extent that I am not triggering that aggressive behavior through aggressive (or "proper") lane positioning, I can perhaps be said to be "controlling" driver behavior.

Yes, I know, VCistas all have flowers strewn at their wheels and kisses blown by passing motorists, and impromptu motor vehicle parades in their honor, in appreciation of their "proper" lane positioning. I, on the other hand, have had horn-honking, angry words, and super-aggressive buzzing.

Except when I've been positioned further to the right...
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Old 03-02-09, 03:13 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by bikesafer View Post
I have tossed around that same idea but never figured out how to do it in a way that didn't put me at risk of either getting knocked off my bike each time the rod got hit or snapping back and hitting me. If you figure out how to make it work, let me and all of us know. I'd love to hear the response of the cop when I showed them the video with a yardstick smacking into the car as he went by.

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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 03-02-09, 03:18 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gosmsgo View Post
I figured he did not have adequate information to make an informed statement.
Yes, I did not have adequate information about my experiences to make an informed statement about them.

Perhaps you have better information about my experiences that would allow you to make an informed statement?


Go ahead, banish it to the VC Ghetto, it's already headed there anyway...
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Old 03-02-09, 03:31 PM
  #34  
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He should put a 3"x5" LCD monitor on his handlebars, so he can use the rear facing camera as a rear-view mirror.
Like, every time a truck passes him, he shouts "Hey!", as if he's surprised.

He should get himself an airzounds, instead of shouting.

When the black pick-um-up truck passed, there was traffic coming the other way.

I personally get out of the way of any larger truck, because they are three feet wider than the average car.

Also, I have done a great deal of prototype work, building streamlined bikes, or Human Powered Vehicles, and Electric Mopeds, so I can do the speed limit. I am partially in agreement with the statement that bikes should [only] be in the traffic lane, IF they are doing the speed limit. At least he is moving at a reasonable speed in the video, and not going 9MPH in the middle of the lane like one lycra-clad cyclist I had to pass in my van.

Get an LCD monitor for the rear view camera, man. And watch out if there's traffic coming the other way.
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Old 03-02-09, 03:34 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by gosmsgo View Post
I doubt you have much experience with proper lane positioning then.
+1... Last year I changed my riding style. I started riding in the lane, (about where the passenger tire would run) this has protected me than anything else I could have done. I used to get clipped (and almost clipped) all the time before that. The reason why riding in the lane is best: 1. It puts you in FRONT of the driver. This helps eliminate chance of not being seen. When people are driving (they become zombies) they don't pay attention, especially to anything happening outside of their path (bicycles on the shoulder) and therefore are unaware of how close they are to killing us. 2. Because you're in their way, you've entered their thought process... They now have to consciously decide to pass you, thereby increasing the chance they will give you the necessary space. (not always... but more often than not...)

We have the legal right to ride in the lane, use it! I have spoken both with policemen (bicycle and car) and they all have supported my ideas. Since riding this way, I've only had a handful of close calls (I'm on my bike 6 days a week 30 - 100 miles a day) in urban and rural areas... (Gig Harbor, Port Orchard, Tacoma, Seattle)
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Old 03-02-09, 03:45 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by bcordy View Post
+1...
So you agree that I don't have much experience with "proper lane positioning"?

Originally Posted by bcordy View Post
I started riding in the lane, (about where the passenger tire would run)
Yep, done that, been buzzed agressively within the lane. Moved further left, still been buzzed super-aggressively, by a driver straddling lanes between me and the car in the lane to my left.

So what else can you tell me?
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Old 03-02-09, 03:57 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Blue Order View Post


Every time I've been positioned "properly," I've had a driver f with me. Every time.

Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.
Actually, looking back on it, that's not accurate. There have been times where I've been positioned "properly" and not been buzzed.

It would be more accurate for me to say that every time I've been buzzed, I was positioned "properly." Every time.

And Every time I've been positioned further to the right, no driver has f'd with me. Ever.
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Old 03-02-09, 04:06 PM
  #38  
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What I have seen is that generally the room you take is the room that motorists will give... with some exceptions. It is the exceptions that will give you problems. The folks that want to "teach you a lesson."

So for instance say I am in the right tire track to avoid the door zone of motorists... most motorists will see that I have the lane and will just change lanes and move on by. However, along comes the indigent motorist... they will get behind you and rev the engine, or get right on your tail or start honking. This behavior tends to rile other motorists... either due to the fact that the indignant motorist is blocking the lane, or due to this bullying example.

It's an Alpha Dog thing if you will. When you are controlling the lane, you are the Alpha... until another Alpha comes along and challenges... then the whole thing escalates... other motorists may chose just to drive on by, but perhaps a passenger or two shouts out... then maybe another motorist decides to honk...

The whole thing can escalate. And you no longer have control.

Or things can go in yet another direction... the weasel that wants to "teach you a lesson" underestimates speed or distance and you get clipped. Then they get to tell the police "the cyclist swerved."
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Old 03-02-09, 04:15 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
What I have seen is that generally the room you take is the room that motorists will give... with some exceptions. It is the exceptions that will give you problems. The folks that want to "teach you a lesson."

So for instance say I am in the right tire track to avoid the door zone of motorists... most motorists will see that I have the lane and will just change lanes and move on by. However, along comes the indigent motorist... they will get behind you and rev the engine, or get right on your tail or start honking. This behavior tends to rile other motorists... either due to the fact that the indignant motorist is blocking the lane, or due to this bullying example.

It's an Alpha Dog thing if you will. When you are controlling the lane, you are the Alpha... until another Alpha comes along and challenges... then the whole thing escalates... other motorists may chose just to drive on by, but perhaps a passenger or two shouts out... then maybe another motorist decides to honk...

The whole thing can escalate. And you no longer have control.

Or things can go in yet another direction... the weasel that wants to "teach you a lesson" underestimates speed or distance and you get clipped. Then they get to tell the police "the cyclist swerved."
Exactly.
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Old 03-02-09, 05:02 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Square & Compas View Post
Those of you contemplating doing this yourself, more power to you. But if you have some type of rod, tube or dowel type device stick out so many feet from your bike, with camera attached to it or not aren't you defeating the purpose? You want police and the media to see how close they get to you, not to some piece stick 2' out form your bike.

Not to mention when a vehicle does hit it, no matter how flexible it can still catch it and not deflect and either pull and drag you in a direction you don't want to go, increase your speed to something you don't want to travel at or push you down into the patf of another vehicle, whether oncoming or otherwise. Please be careful if you pursue something like this.
I'm glad you added the "or not" - it would be pretty dumb to actually put the camera on the end of the rod. Please assume that the rod is sticking out, not to show how close the passing vehicles get to the rod, but rather how close they get to the rider i.e. assume that the rod is actually going to be hit. Most things can be engineered to fail gracefully and not pose additional risk on top of those posed by the close passing vehicle. As such, please assume that the rod material is chosen to reduce the likely hood of being 'snagged or caught' on the passing vehicle, also it would be designed to snap-off with little relative force.

If the rod is adequately smooth and flexible, then it might survive multiple impacts, it would also need to be very light to allow rapid acceleration

Also a 3' rod sticking out from a starting point equivalent to my elbow would not be "2' out", it would probably be closer to 4'. You appear to be one of two posters that think the 3' passing clearance starts at the center of the bike and not the rider's elbow - why so?
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Old 03-02-09, 05:03 PM
  #41  
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I think the important thing is what Jeff is doing here. Education, information, and publicity.
To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be. You do not control them up there, you put your life in THEIR hands.
What do you want your tombstone epitaph to read:? "I HAD THE RIGHT OF WAY" "I HAD CONTROL OF THE LANE" "I HAD THE RIGHT TO BE THERE"?
More power to Jeff.
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Old 03-02-09, 05:24 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by David13 View Post
... To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be. You do not control them up there, you put your life in THEIR hands. ...
If I am in front of a car and the car is 20 feet behind me and moving at the same speed, then where is the danger?

I've never thought of my riding as "controlling" other vehicles - it is merely influence.

"you put your life in THEIR hands" - speak for yourself only. I decide when, where and how I ride, my life is in my own hands. You reinforce the myth that car drivers are somehow personally responsible for my life - they are only responsible for obeying the rules of the road and staying in control of their well maintained vehicle, if I do likewise then the risks are acceptable to me. It is when car drivers abandon their own responsibilities that others are put in danger, that is when they assume the additional responsibility and consequences that stem from their negligence.
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Old 03-02-09, 05:24 PM
  #43  
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He sure does shout a lot.
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Old 03-02-09, 05:33 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by HoustonB View Post
If I am in front of a car and the car is 20 feet behind me and moving at the same speed, then where is the danger?
Very little danger if they and you are moving at the same speed.

But what happens when that car is closing fast and moving 30MPH faster then you?

Originally Posted by HoustonB View Post
I've never thought of my riding as "controlling" other vehicles - it is merely influence.

"you put your life in THEIR hands" - speak for yourself only. I decide when, where and how I ride, my life is in my own hands. You reinforce the myth that car drivers are somehow personally responsible for my life - they are only responsible for obeying the rules of the road and staying in control of their well maintained vehicle, if I do likewise then the risks are acceptable to me. It is when car drivers abandon their own responsibilities that others are put in danger, that is when they assume the additional responsibility and consequences that stem from their negligence.
The problem is that not all negligent car drivers assume that additional responsibility. There are enough hit and run stories out there to prove that.
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Old 03-02-09, 05:50 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
Very little danger if they and you are moving at the same speed.

But what happens when that car is closing fast and moving 30MPH faster then you?
The original argument was "to be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be" - what if I had said, no, surely being in front of a loaded gun with the safety off, is the most dangerous place to be, or adjacent to a nuclear reactor melting down and lacking containment, or ... Obviously I am aware that being in front of a moving car 'can be' dangerous, but the "most dangerous"?

Originally Posted by genec View Post
The problem is that not all negligent car drivers assume that additional responsibility. There are enough hit and run stories out there to prove that.
Agreed there are too many hit-and-run stories, but what is the ratio of hit-and-run to hit-and-stopped and faced the music? The argument here is not which case falls into the 'exception' category.
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Old 03-02-09, 06:12 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by David13 View Post
To be in front of a car is the most dangerous place you can be.
To be in front of a car in a position that makes your presence obvious, and makes it obvious that they will have to at least partially change lanes to pass, is a whole heck of a lot safer than being beside a car and trying to share a lane that is too narrow.

Yes, this includes roads with 55 mph speed limits. Or to put it a better way; this is especially important on roads with higher speed limits.

Last edited by CommuterRun; 03-02-09 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 03-02-09, 06:27 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by hotbike View Post
Like, every time a truck passes him, he shouts "Hey!", as if he's surprised.
I was thinking that maybe the producers of that spot dubbed the "HEY!" from one of the clips into all of them. It just sounded way too similar each time.
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Old 03-02-09, 06:32 PM
  #48  
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Oh, and another thing about choosing a lane position further to the left: When you see in your rearview mirror that you're about to get buzzed by the occasional pinhead cager, you have room to shift over a foot or 3 and snatch the wind right out of his sails. Take your lane position back as soon as possible after the pass is made. Make sure you wave just after he gets past.
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Old 03-02-09, 06:47 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by CommuterRun View Post
Oh, and another thing about choosing a lane position further to the left: When you see in your rearview mirror that you're about to get buzzed by the occasional pinhead cager, you have room to shift over a foot or 3 and snatch the wind right out of his sails. Take your lane position back as soon as possible after the pass is made. Make sure you wave just after he gets past.
Unless the pinhead doesn't realize that you're in complete control of everything, and does this:

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Or passed him just as closely, or even closer on the right.
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Old 03-02-09, 06:58 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by HoustonB View Post
Excellent video.

I'm thinking of doing something similar but with a 3 foot, very thin, flexible rod that sticks out into traffic from the rear rack - the traffic (backward) facing side a mix of neutral colors, the camera facing side high visibility with heavy black lines at the 0, 1, 2 and 3 foot marks (3 feet starts at my elbow, not the bike).

Choosing an appropriate material for the rod is the challenge - it needs to yield without breaking into dangerous projectiles when hit by vehicles that might be doing over 55 mph, but it also needs to be rigid enough not to bend (too much) when riding.

Ideally I would also like something that determines the speed of the passing vehicle, even if it is just me shouting the speed for an audio record.

In Oregon we can use a citizen initiated “violation proceeding” leading to citation.
Saw a guy with orange pipe insulation or a "noodle" flotation device
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