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Does Wearing A Helmet Save Lives.

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Does Wearing A Helmet Save Lives.

Old 08-09-09, 04:38 PM
  #101  
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Does Dr Levy happen to have an engineering degree and can determine which helmets work vs which ones don't?

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Old 08-09-09, 05:16 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
Like BookFinder, I am a strong proponent of helmet use.

While on my motorcycle, I have been riding with friends, who have had horrendous get offs at speed. In both cases, their helmet, and other protective gear was destroyed, while they remained unhurt.

One question, though, Rick, why were you putting that motorcycle on a trailer???? Goldwings PULL trailers............. just sayin......
Oh no! I'm busted!

Actually Phil, I've degenerated into a shameless kinda-sorter motorcycling poser!

When riding solo or with a group of the guys I still ride the Wing where ever, but over the past several years we've got to the point that if Carol is going I trailer the bike and then we take in the scenery together.

Taking the truck with the bike on the trailer in tow makes for a very pleasant trip to and from when going a long way. And we hotel it instead of camping...

I guess I've just lost it, eh?

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Old 08-09-09, 11:06 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Bikeskills View Post
While we have our own opinions and observations at Bikeskills;...
You ought to be ashamed at your "cheap-PR" plug.

-Kurt
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Old 08-09-09, 11:33 PM
  #104  
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Well, mark me down as a fan of helmets. I lived in kentucky at the time... When I was 12, I was riding my bike that had sat out in the rain too much, and went to hammer on the pedals standing up as my pedals snapped off from severe rust. I was not wearing a helmet, and my mom hadn't gotten home from work yet.

Just as she was pulling down the unpaved street, I flew headfirst over the handlebars (caught some nice air for a fatty) and landed headfirst on a large rock. Smacked it right with the top left part of my head from about the front of my hairline to 3/4s of the way back of my huge cranium. Was only a little bloody since I hit a hard rock and didn't scrape it on asphalt.

I promptly vomited and had a welt the circumference of a freaking tennis ball. Had to smack myself in the face to not fall asleep standing up, was seeing double, it was freaking awful. I remember flying through the air, and then I remember drooling on myself trying to get up.

Ever since then I've never failed to wear a helmet, even if just to make it not sting so damn much if I hit my head again.
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Old 08-10-09, 11:00 AM
  #105  
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Hey, I see what you did here...
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Old 08-10-09, 12:33 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by alicestrong View Post
Hey, I see what you did here...
Ha ha, I obviously put it in the wrong thread. Perhaps a part of my eeeevil scheme.
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Old 08-10-09, 05:59 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland View Post
True. Received wisdom is already set in favour of helmets, to the extent that non helmet wearing riders are looked upon with scorn, even in places where their actions are legal.
Almost certainly, some people look at non-helmeted riders with "scorn". It's quite likely too that some people look at helmeted riders with scorn.

Unlike what you are implying, it certainly isn't all of them. You have no idea if it's even a majority of them!

I see lots of people who don't wear helmets. I don't think much about it. They'd have to do much more to earn my scorn!

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-10-09 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 08-10-09, 09:17 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Almost certainly, some people look at non-helmeted riders with "scorn". It's quite likely too that some people look at helmeted riders with scorn.

Unlike what you are implying, it certainly isn't all of them. You have no idea if it's even a majority of them!

I see lots of people who don't wear helmets. I don't think much about it. They'd have to do much more to earn my scorn!
FWIW, I don't "scorn" people who choose not to wear a helmet. That said, neither do I buy the "well, he (or she) died doing something they loved" line of malarkey as an adequate response to having treated the risk with scorn.

So if another cyclist opts to take their chances without the helmet, that is their prerogative. My choice is to take my chances with the helmet.

Life is filled with paradoxes.
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Old 08-10-09, 09:46 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Pezzle View Post
Ha ha, I obviously put it in the wrong thread. Perhaps a part of my eeeevil scheme.

You could put it here...

Apparently there is an insatiable demand for helmet debate threads on B-Fo...
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Old 08-10-09, 09:58 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Almost certainly, some people look at non-helmeted riders with "scorn". It's quite likely too that some people look at helmeted riders with scorn.

Unlike what you are implying, it certainly isn't all of them. You have no idea if it's even a majority of them!

I see lots of people who don't wear helmets. I don't think much about it. They'd have to do much more to earn my scorn!
Well, not everyone, but I have seen this behaviour. I was just trying to illustrate the pervasive nature of the campaigning.
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Old 08-10-09, 11:01 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by alicestrong View Post

Apparently there is an insatiable demand for helmet debate threads on B-Fo...
I take my helmet debates intravenously every morning so I don't have to drag them to the B-Fo, unfortunately it seems this lapse in judgment means I missed a dose...
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Old 08-11-09, 06:43 AM
  #112  
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well, at least this thread on the debate is a little bit unique in that the OP has asked readers to read and assess the wikipedia page and using that as reference ask, does wearing a helmet save lives?

Is this a first? Starting this question from a position of neutrality, rather than from personal preference or bias?

As written by wiki - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV

Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikimedia principle and a cornerstone of Wikipedia. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors...

"Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research".

Last edited by closetbiker; 08-11-09 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 08-11-09, 06:45 AM
  #113  
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I agree that it is a law that shouldn't be enforced, studies have shown this will on the whole only deter people from riding their bikes; it should be down to personal choice. However, my personal choice is based on my personal experience, and that is that a family member nearly died, and he wasn't wearing a helmet. I cannot say for sure whether his predicament would have been better if he were wearing one, but I do feel it is very likely. I think the focus of research in this field in the future should be in the development of better helmets, so the answer would be definitive
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Old 08-11-09, 07:17 AM
  #114  
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Maybe if this guy had been wearing a helmet, it would have stopped the bullet like that other guy's
https://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-homicide.html
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Old 08-11-09, 07:28 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by GreenGrasshoppr View Post
Maybe if this guy had been wearing a helmet, it would have stopped the bullet like that other guy's
https://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...-homicide.html
Early photo of typical AnS safety nanny



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Old 08-11-09, 09:01 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by closetbiker View Post
"Neutral point of view" is one of Wikipedia's three core content policies. The other two are "Verifiability" and "No original research".
to supplement that, i would add also assume good faith, (ie, don't jump to the conclusion that an edit or revert is a direct attack on your character and go starting a feud) and be bold.

oh, and re-stress verfiability. citations or it didn't happen!
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Old 08-11-09, 10:19 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by dobber View Post
Early photo of typical AnS safety nanny

What's the padding doing on the outside?

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Old 08-11-09, 10:43 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Pezzle View Post
I take my helmet debates intravenously every morning so I don't have to drag them to the B-Fo, unfortunately it seems this lapse in judgment means I missed a dose...


Maybe it's for the best. Look what happened to poor Michael Jackson.

But why do you take them in the morning, instead of at bedtime?
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Old 08-11-09, 11:36 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland View Post
Well, not everyone, but I have seen this behaviour. I was just trying to illustrate the pervasive nature of the campaigning.
The evidence of the presumed "pervasive nature" has not been presented. I suspect that the majority of helmet wearers mostly don't care.

Originally Posted by BookFinder View Post
That said, neither do I buy the "well, he (or she) died doing something they loved" line of malarkey as an adequate response to having treated the risk with scorn.
Yes, this argument is absurd. Imagine how more absurd it would be apply to somebody who died and wasn't wearing a seat-belt.

Last edited by njkayaker; 08-11-09 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 08-16-09, 01:36 PM
  #120  
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my sister in Montreal was riding near some trees in a park the other day, a branch caught her helmet holes and yanked her off her bike. She's had a sore neck and back since. Just another reason I stay clear of helmets.

Without the helmet she would barely have had a scratch.
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Old 08-17-09, 12:28 AM
  #121  
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It has been an interesting read overall IMO though it certainly strayed far from the original post question in many cases. In fact I got the impression that many posters did not even bother to read my original post or read the article.

Based on the Wikipedia article I found the posts from Canadians and Austrailians regarding mandatory adult bicycling helmet laws and their minimal effect on bicycling death rates interesting and informative.

Is there any information available on whether the laws reduced hospital admissions for non life threatening head injuries?
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Old 08-17-09, 03:45 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by tatfiend View Post

Is there any information available on whether the laws reduced hospital admissions for non life threatening head injuries?
A far more meaningful metric would be the overnight admission for serious head injuries. Reason to exclude the numerous trips to E.R's with no significant or obvious head injury to "get checked out, just in case" that pump up an inflated "head injury rate" for bicycle accidents.
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Old 08-17-09, 03:58 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by BookFinder View Post
While I stand by my statement on the value of a helmet based on simple observation, I do agree that the testing of bicycle helmets such as you describe would be a huge step forward. I’ll also stand by my definitive would have made the difference phrasing.

Next, I want to make a comment about this:

I would beg to differ with several aspects of your argument. For example, Shoei motorcycle helmets are top of the line, and their best models are the lightest in weight. And then there is the matter of football gear.

For the down linemen, college football is the equivalent of being in a three hour car wreck every Saturday. I would argue the bone and tissue injuries would end their career after just a few games without pads. And the ref will stop the game if any player loses his helmet even with the play in motion. My point is that a protective barrier does not have to be as tightly controlled as a motorcycle helmet to have real value.
I have to point out that only simpering fetishistic nancy men have to don helmets to play rugby. If head injury was really a serious danger for the un-helmeted ball game player then the entire population of Wales would be dead.

And about this statement:

Actually, motorcycle helmets are supposed to break. They “give” and absorb impact so it is not transferred to the skull and brain. The shell typically cracks and the helmet is then considered useless. If you wish to read up on motorcyclists and their take on helmets browse over to the Face Plant section at Adventure Rider. You will find lots of stories – and pictures, of the results of crashes.

And back to the matter of head injuries and helmets, if the injury that kills a person is a head injury, and other people taking blows to the head while wearing helmets survive, it is reasonable to conclude a helmet that would have absorbed the impact would have made the difference. So I think the point stands on the merit of its own reasonableness.
No, this is profound illogic. One can reach your conclusion only if the *rate* pf survival of the helmeted and naked were different. Unlike you I have bothered to check - and they are not.

Arguing that because some people who helmets survive and ignoring the fact that "nakeds" survive at an equal rate is very, very silly.


With that said – and since motorcycle helmets were mentioned, I'll share two other experiences...

And having put myself through school doing construction work, I can argue the merits of hard hats on construction sites. Just a shell with no Styrofoam there, but that shell will keep you from serious injury if some knucklehead drops a ball-peen hammer from the second floor…
This is goes beyond silly: all sorts of helmets work. Arguing that this means anything helmet-shaped will also work in its intended domain, irrespective of construction and usage is the logic of a child who expects that painting flames or red stripes on the side of his bicycle will make it go faster. The way an adult should judge the effectiveness of a cycle helmet is to look at it in context, paying special attention to the statistics for actual use.
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Old 08-17-09, 04:15 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Bikeskills View Post
While we have our own opinions and observations at Bikeskills; yey we understand that others have theirs. We are, however, somewhat unique in that one of our advisors, Dr. Michael Levy MD PhD, is also one of the world's true experts on pentrating injuries of the head and neck.
..And so completely irrelevant to a debate about cycle helmets, which are NOT DESIGNED TO STOP PENTRATING INJURIES. Which is sensible, as they aren't a real contributor to cycling deaths.

Dr. Levy is the Chief Neurosurgeon at Childrens Hospital in San Diego, as well as a clinical professor of neurosurgery at UCLA and UCSD Medical Schools. Michael is also a mountain biker, big wave surfer, and father.

Another unique view we have here comes from our parent firm (Epic Way Sports) involvement in producing a documentary film on traumatic brain injury (TBI), of which Dr. Levy is an expert board member. You can read about the film and watch a trailer at: www.goingthedistance.info What is not discussed on the website is how many soliders, skiers, cylcists etc. were either saved, or, who did not have [I]other[I] injuries that were prevented by a hard-shelled (or in some cases Kevlar) helmet and other protective gear.
Once again, ***it is idiotic to think that because a Formula One helmet works or a modern military helmet works then a cycling helmet must work - because it shares the same rough shape and name.*** This isn't symbolic magic but engineering.

Whether or not helmets save lives or reduce injuries is not an argument that one has when they have not only done the interviews we have during the filming of Going The Distance, performed the procedures that Dr. Levy has, or, simply spent time with brain injury survivors as we have, such as we did last year during the Lake Tahoe Crossing and again just two days ago.
Grow up. The fact that you have personally talked with someone who has brain damage has nothing to do with whether or not cycling helmets work or not. Your thinking is literally childish: "I have had an emotional experience, therefore what I want to believe must be true!"

No, Tinkerbell, I don't believe in fairies.

The real world is about rotational forces, deceleration, helmet liner failure modes, retention systems, testing and survival rates. Not engaging with it is moral cowardice. Current helmets are designed to cope reasonably well with a 12mph hit - after that they fail to provide any benefit. Which means they're useful in ameliorating an embarrassing slow "Doh, I fell off my bike!" that was anyway unlikely to result in moderate or severe injury, but literally worthless in the event of an accident remotely likely to lead to the sort of injury you're emoting about. (Unlike a whole host of less emoted over safety measures, such as using brake pads that still work in the rain and tyres that still grip.)

Please, wear your helmet. If not for yourself, then for the people who care about you.

Rob Howard
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Hopefully I'll be spared ever viewing one of your flicks - I feel saccharine allergy coming on.

You really didn't bother to do any research at all, did you?
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Old 08-17-09, 04:38 AM
  #125  
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Don't know if it saved my life, but pretty sure once, it saved me from a concussion.
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