And we all know that there are no such things as options or upgrades on new cars.
And just for you, they should mandate what helmet comes with the bike you buy and force you to wear it.:roflmao2:

^^??? you must be mistaking me for a mandatory helmet advocate. Not sure where you got that idea?

:lol:

OK, so I guess you don't think lights are essential or should be required, got it. but you do realize that you can't 'upgrade it' if it doesn't exist to be upgraded in the first place.

I meant the part where you wrote stupid things.

If that was not your intent you shouldn't have written something so ridiculous. Sorry. :innocent:


This line of thought =/= logic

Not for nothing and for those that do not know. The size of the light and/or reflector is governed by the law makers. by size I mean over all square inches or centimeters. I beleive this includes both front, white are usually white, rear which are usually red and additional or pedal reflectors which are typically amber. I think the minimum is 3 square inches total. Meaning the light/reflector can be any shape that is wanted, but it mush equal a total of 3 square inches. But do not quote me on the 3 square inches, that could be mistaken.

Just love how you choose to ignore or are not capable of understanding the context of others post.

Actually, your statement makes perfect sense - until you put it into the context of this discussion. That's when it stops making sense.

Let's review:
;)

2 points:

1-Everything you mentiond remains safely LOCKED inside the car (except the spd bump :) when the person goes walking about. If motorists had to drag those items around (incl the spd bump:) , it would be an entirely different scenario.

2-The writing of a law needs to have an overwhelming cause. Laws aren't written for an entire society that will change only 1-2 lives. Laws written without proper cause/justification are simply bureaucracy pushed either by people/companies who stand to profit, including profits for the lawyers writing these laws (or Moms against this and that, anything to require OTHERS to take responsibility for their own children)

people can and do steal car parts, it's not at all hard to remove bumpers, tailgates, catalytic converters, light lenses/housings, batteries, wheels and other components if you know what you're doing and have the correct tools.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here, but if you're implying that having lights fixed to a bike means they may get stolen, you're being a bit silly (especially since, bumpers, mufflers, etc. are not locked inside the car - and of course those items do occasionally get stolen off of cars. **** happens. - but that doesn't make those items any less useful.)

So basically, you're saying that nobody uses bicycles, and cycling is pretty much trivial nonsense lawmakers and everybody else can just stay away from...

Of course, a place I worked last year in Florida had the air conditioner units stolen off the roof!!!!

But the point is, mostly, if you leave little expensive items on your cycle in the city overnight, there's a very good chance they'll be gone tomorrow. Extremists even take off their seats and front wheels! The only way to reasonably MANDATE presence of security devices is to have them built in. BUT, cycling is the transportation for those too poor to own motorised vehicles. So to make more expensive cycles in order that they have more similar safety features to cars IS counterproductive.

Cycling is safe, cycling is cheap, cycling is health promoting. Our societies should instead be working on REMOVING privileges from motorists and INCREASING privileges to cyclists. We are unfortunately headed the opposite direction.

You are being dense on purpose? oh, sorry, you're just playing devils advocate, because your post makes no sense!!!

You imply that bumpers and lights get stolen from cars at around the same percentage as items from bicycles, do you even cycle yourself**********???? Do you have any understanding of statistics??

When it comes to vehicle ownership, cyclists are without a doubt already THE MOST PRIVILEGED.

Are you required to insure your bicycle? no. Do you have to register your bicycle? Plates, tags? etc? no. Did you have to pass a test to be allowed to use your bicycle on the streets? no. Do you pay for parking you bike downtown? probably not.

those darned motorists, they just get all the breaks don't they? ;)

:rolleyes:


I have been commuting by bicycle for six years. And I had installed generator lighting systems on all of my bicycles. Never had a light stolen off of my bicycle. Even when I worked late shifts in downtown Seattle with crackheads wondering around.

Could somebody steal it if they wanted to? Certainly. But that doesn't mean they will.

IMO, the real issue is the security - or lack thereof - of bike parking facilities. battery lights and other small removable components like saddles can easily be taken with the owner when locking a bike, or, like front wheels, can be removed and locked with the bike. Or you can replace quick release devices with regular or security bolts such as those made by Pitlock.

I use dynamo lights on most of my bike, they are securely bolted to the bike frame and require a combination of several wrenches to remove, and I've never had a problem with theft.

I'd say the problem of theft is actually much higher for motor vehicles. I seriously doubt there even are any reliable stats on the theft of bike parts; OTOH, I'm sure the auto insurance industry has some pretty good stats on reported theft of car parts. It's actually a lot more common than you'd think.

I have been commuting by bicycle for six years. And I had installed generator lighting systems on all of my bicycles. Never had a light stolen off of my bicycle. Even when I worked late shifts in downtown Seattle with crackheads wondering around.

6 years hey :) bravo, you're getting there...

Could somebody steal it if they wanted to? Certainly. But that doesn't mean they will.[/QUOTE]

You have been lucky (or your dynamos aren't considered sexy enough to steal, crackheads steal for resale value), and your story is but an anecdote, statistically speaking, things left on bicycles get stolen very frequently.

The issue is not the "momentary status" but the DIRECTION we're moving in. Our society is moving in the DIRECTION of decreasing cyclist privileges. This is the WRONG direction. More and more cities ARE getting registration, tags, writtten into cycling laws. Same with helmet and light laws, more and more regulations.

Ok. I'll bite. Show me the statistics. :thumb:

My experience is that I can outrun any production bicycle light system under real-world conditions. Not everyone rides in complete darkness, on level straight dry roads, with no interference from 2 or 3 lanes of oncoming traffic to disrupt their night vision, at speeds that never exceed 30mph. That's just for the record, though; even "be-seen" headlights are infinitely better than nothing.

Regarding the original topic:

Yes, unquestionably. Although I recommend using both lights and reflectors. http://mechbgon.com/visibility/activevpassive.html

No, I think people who ride on public roadways at night should be required to use active lighting, front & rear, in addition to reflectors. It's entirely reasonable to require that, for their safety and the safety of everyone else who's sharing the road with them. If they're so seriously impoverished that they can't spend $5-$10 for a rear light, there should be an assistance program to help them out instead of fining them for non-compliance.

The difference between light laws and helmet laws, in my view, is that a lack of a helmet only affects the cyclist, but the lack of lights affects others too. Making last-second avoidance maneuvers because the cyclist wasn't visible is dangerous for everyone in the immediate area, for example.

That and reflective side wall are the only two points I made, and I already corrected myself on the later one. I agree with CBHI

It's just that when you use scare quotes like that, it gives the impression that you're not being serious.

And then of course, there's the rest of the post, which is ridiculous.

Sorry if I thought you were being sarcastic.

So mandatory lights can't be installed without braze-ons and one-way screws. I remember hearing years ago of a guy who had his forth car radio stolen, who took and put a drop of solder on the screw threads so that the screws could not be removed without requiring a soldering iron.

As for laws, there are are laws requiring bicycle lights be used at certain times, extending those law to state that they must be equipped with lights at all times, to be deemed road worthy, and that lights must be installed before being sold, isn't really a stretch. We already have such requirements for reflectors in many places. It would be difficult for weight weenies who spend thousands of dollars to save a few grams, to have bicycles suddenly 400g heavier due to the lights.

One possibility would be have bikes sold with a "minimal" light set/kit. Yes, there will be people who remove them and replace them with a better light set/kit. And in that case the LBS should allow the purchaser the chance to trade in and upgrade (within limits) the existing light set/kit for a better one.

And there will be purchasers who remove the light set/kit and not replace it with a better kit. Some of those will probably be those who are purchasing their bikes for racing and/or off road use in which case they should probably "exempt" from having a light set/kit.

And as we know there will always be a certain percent who'll be "ninja riders" i.e. they'll either remove the light set/kit and not replace it as well as remove or not replace reflectors as they break and fall off of their bikes. As well as wearing dark clothing. Sadly other then constantly ticketing them and/or confiscating their bicycles there isn't much that we can do to stop or teach them that what they're doing is wrong.

You have been lucky (or your dynamos aren't considered sexy enough to steal, crackheads steal for resale value), and your story is but an anecdote, statistically speaking, things left on bicycles get stolen very frequently.[/QUOTE]

I have several small, easily removed items on my bicycle. I tend to spend several hours at my local public library and so far nothing has been stolen off of my bicycle. I have also spent a fair amount of time at the local mall and again nothing on my bike has been stolen off of my bike.

Maybe I'm just lucky or maybe the places that I frequent are safer then "the norm" but so far everything has been safe.

Granted the library that I spend most of my time at has a security camera that is intentionally setup observe the bicycle area. And so far even though other bikes have been stolen while mine has been there other then looking at it. The thieves haven't touched my bike, and given that I use a Topeak bike cover it's not like "looking at it" is going to tell them what is under the cover.

I've seen this view expressed frequently, but have never seen any research quoted to prove it.

I'm sceptical about this. As rider and driver, I've seen large nos. of cyclists with blinkies and, AFAIK, have never been unable to judge how far away they are. I've certainly never found one suddenly in front of me whom I had thought further away.


Anyone any references to such research?