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Stop that unsafe bicycling or I'll Shoot - sentencing

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Stop that unsafe bicycling or I'll Shoot - sentencing

Old 11-21-09, 12:17 PM
  #26  
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^ When ya lay it out like that...I like, I like. eat: directed at mc
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Old 11-22-09, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mitchxout View Post
It's Ron Moore. Carry on.
How I got 'Tom' out of 'Ron', is unbelievable, for me.

Thanks for the correction. We just won't tell him, that I got his name wrong.
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Old 11-23-09, 12:09 PM
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(Bad link to the article, by the way...)

Anyway, I have to ask; is it normal for firefighters to carry firearms on them? Apparently they do in Asheville, NC.

This is what happens when you let any old yo-yo carry firearms.
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Old 11-23-09, 12:41 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mike View Post
(Bad link to the article, by the way...)

Anyway, I have to ask; is it normal for firefighters to carry firearms on them? Apparently they do in Asheville, NC.

This is what happens when you let any old yo-yo carry firearms.
Hey, some of us enjoy our constitutional rights to bare arms. But for self defense, not for deciding who I like and dislike may or may not get to live.

This is a blatant show of "knowing someone" for a reduced sentence. If the cyclist was riding and just pulled out in front of the car to stop him, proceeded to pull out a gun and shoot the driver, resulting in similar injuries, this guys would have gotten 5-10 plus all the same felony probably class b. At this point we should just make every (non-volunteer) firefighter, police officer, DOT, state rep, (basically every state employee except teachers; nobody in office cares about teachers) into a Badge Holding, Judge.
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Old 11-24-09, 08:51 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by X-LinkedRider View Post
Hey, some of us enjoy our constitutional rights to bare arms.
Yeah! I like tank tops and short sleeve shirts too!

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Old 11-24-09, 10:23 AM
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The OP's article link doesn't work anymore, but this one does.
https://www.citizen-times.com/article...EWS01/91119061
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Old 11-29-09, 05:57 PM
  #32  
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It's unfortunate that people are misunderstanding (deliberately, even) this case. It's OK to be insensed about this case but it isn't OK to be wrong about the details.

It would seem that the basic facts of this case are:

1) Diaz yelled at the cyclist for riding "unsafely" (which was stupid).
2) Apparently, the cyclist got off his bike and went over to Diaz car and started yelling (which was stupid too).
3) Apparently, Diaz felt threated and shot at the cyclist in his car window (which was also stupid).

What isn't true is that the cyclist was shot because he was riding "unsafely".

Here's some advice for everybody. If you carry a gun, yelling at people is a stupid thing to do. If you are in a place where people are legally allowed to carry guns, coming over to yell at people is a stupid thing to do.

The real problem is why people carry guns for "protection". Note that some cyclists carry guns too! (Which means that a cyclist could have made the same sort of dumb mistake Diaz did).

It would seem to me that it's much, much more likely that such guns would be misused than they would be used for "protection". I believe that if people think they need to carry a gun, they really should move instead.
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Old 11-29-09, 06:07 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by X-LinkedRider View Post
Hey, some of us enjoy our constitutional rights to bare arms. But for self defense, not for deciding who I like and dislike may or may not get to live.
And (in his mind) Diaz was using the gun for self defence. If people carry guns, crap like this case are going to happen.
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Old 11-29-09, 06:47 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
And (in his mind) Diaz was using the gun for self defence. If people carry guns, crap like this case are going to happen.
Firstly:

That's probably true of a lot of homicides. It should be taken into account in sentencing, but only in that being an irresponsible cretin or coward is better than being a calculating killer. Being shouted at (shouted back at, in this case) is NOT assault, so there is no right of "self defense". When this moron decided to carry a gun he made a contract with society to use it responsibly. "In his own mind" was not part of the deal. For goodness sake - there are tens of thousands of people in US jails serving life sentences for victimless crimes.


Secondly:

According to the second link give, "When Simons began to walk away, Diez shot at him." It isn't self defense if you shoot at someone who is walking away.
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Old 11-29-09, 06:53 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
3) Apparently, Diaz felt threated and shot at the cyclist in his car window.
You and Diaz's lawyer must be the only ones believing that BS. The real story =
When Simons began to walk away, Diez shot at him. The bullet blew a hole through the outer lining of Simons' helmet.
https://www.citizen-times.com/article...EWS01/91119061
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Old 11-29-09, 07:13 PM
  #36  
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Some of us are quite able to use guns only in self defense. Note that the rules also apply to pepper spray, tasers, clubs, tire pumps, and the like.

In decades of travel, I've used a gun in defense twice (didn't fire either time), actually maced a human attacking me (didn't feel good to do that - was from a bicycle), and was knocked off a bicycle twice when unable to muster a suitable defense (a companion came to my defense in one incident, driving off the attacker). None of this stuff happened in apparently dangerous areas. Stuff happens if you're out and about. You can take it lying down, or do something.

In really dangerous areas, going armed may simply get you shot without warning. I can't think of anywhere in this country, but I've traveled in places frequented by teenage conscripts with automatic rifles. Best to let them win every time.
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Old 11-30-09, 08:09 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by mconlonx View Post
I think his sentence could be viewed as plenty fair:

"Only" 120 days in jail. Raised hands--how many of us have spent any time at all in jail, country club or not? I'm guessing it will suck, at the very least, compared to being not locked up.

He will be on parole/probation for 30 months. 2-1/2 years where he can be tested for drugs or alcohol at will, his home can be searched at any time, and he cannot travel without permission.

He won't be able to vote for those 30 months, maybe longer if there is additional probation involved, and there are 12 states where he will never be able to vote.

He will never be able to legally carry a firearm. Sure hope he wasn't a hunter (firefighter? in NC? what's the chances...).

He lost his job Aug 10, will not be able to pass a background check if it ever comes up, and will have to disclose a felony record on job apps. He'll never get a job in his chosen field, or police work, or the military(?).

He likely will be denied entry into many foreign countries, including Canada.

He pretty much wrecked his life. I got no pity for him--he made his flowers, now he must eat them--but there are far more ramifications than just the jail sentence to think about when considering what's "fair." All the above? Seems pretty fair for taking an undeserved shot at someone, but which did not kill or do grievous injury.
The sentence seems fair??
Are you nuts?

People get harsher sentences for simple burglary.
We're talking about almost killing someone.

Again, are you nuts?
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Old 11-30-09, 10:58 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
You and Diaz's lawyer must be the only ones believing that BS. The real story =
https://www.citizen-times.com/article...EWS01/91119061
I don't know that those details of the case are, in fact, true. Nor do you.

Keep in mind that I've made no comment about what I think Diaz deserves.

Diez stopped his car and confronted Simons near 1360 Tunnel Road. When Simons began to walk away, Diez shot at him, [Asheville Police Capt] Splain said.
It would be interesting to know how Splain knew this detail (he wasn't a witness). Are you sure that that is all he said? Did the writer of the article leave stuff out?

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Firstly:
That's probably true of a lot of homicides.
I'd guess that "self defence" would account for a small minority of homicides (in the US) (ignoring law enforcement).

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Firstly:
That's probably true of a lot of homicides. It should be taken into account in sentencing, but only in that being an irresponsible cretin or coward is better than being a calculating killer.
Not everybody hear understands that.

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Firstly:
Being shouted at (shouted back at, in this case) is NOT assault, so there is no right of "self defense".
I said that was stupid (ie, inexcusable). But I don't know exacly how things escalated. Nor do you.

It would seem to mean that there was absolutely no reason for this to have gotten out of hand. There were numerous options that could have been taken by Diaz (certainly) and the cyclist to have avoided any shots being fired.

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
When this moron decided to carry a gun he made a contract with society to use it responsibly.
So, it looked like that helped in this case. What test do you propose that would make sure, a priori, that people are sufficiently responsable?

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
"In his own mind" was not part of the deal.
It would seem pretty-common for people not involved in the actual situation to rate the threat as much lower than people who where involved. It would seem pretty-common for the people involved to rate the threat as much, much higher.

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
For goodness sake - there are tens of thousands of people in US jails serving life sentences for victimless crimes.
?? Non-sequator?

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Secondly:

According to the second link give, "When Simons began to walk away, Diez shot at him." It isn't self defense if you shoot at someone who is walking away.
What makes you so certain that that is exactly everthing that was going on? (Keep in mind that I think it's stupid for people to be carrying guns in the first place.)

=================

Originally Posted by mandovoodoo View Post
Some of us are quite able to use guns only in self defense. Note that the rules also apply to pepper spray, tasers, clubs, tire pumps, and the like.
There is an important, obvious difference between guns and the other stuff.

Originally Posted by mandovoodoo View Post
In decades of travel, I've used a gun in defense twice (didn't fire either time), actually maced a human attacking me (didn't feel good to do that - was from a bicycle), and was knocked off a bicycle twice when unable to muster a suitable defense (a companion came to my defense in one incident, driving off the attacker). None of this stuff happened in apparently dangerous areas. Stuff happens if you're out and about. You can take it lying down, or do something.
There isn't enough information to comment about this. Though this indicates that stuff doesn't often work very well (For instance, I have no idea how people think that a gun is a useful weapon when riding a bicycle.)

Originally Posted by mandovoodoo View Post
In really dangerous areas, going armed may simply get you shot without warning. I can't think of anywhere in this country, but I've traveled in places frequented by teenage conscripts with automatic rifles. Best to let them win every time.
Keep in mind that I'm talking about a limited context. I'm not talking about other parts of the world. (I would not suggest that the same rules apply universally.)

=================

Originally Posted by Bikepacker67 View Post
People get harsher sentences for simple burglary.
We're talking about almost killing someone.
Well. you can't commit burglary accidentally. Some people are not very knowlegable about the US legal system.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-30-09 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 11-30-09, 12:56 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
I don't know that those details of the case are, in fact, true. Nor do you.
Sure, just discount the eyewitnesses that called 911, to suit your accounting speculation of things.
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Old 11-30-09, 01:53 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
Sure, just discount the eyewitnesses that called 911, to suit your accounting speculation of things.
So, where is that information? The article you linked to mentioned witnesses but doesn't indicate what they said.

(Nothing I said contradicts the idea that the cyclist was shot-at while walking away.)

It seems fairly clear that the thread title "Stop that unsafe bicycling or I'll Shoot" is a lie.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-30-09 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 11-30-09, 04:22 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
I don't know that those details of the case are, in fact, true. Nor do you.
This is a stupid argument coming from someone who assumed a couple of posts ago that he DID know what had happened, based on a now pulled news story! A (non-pulled) news story based on testimony in court is a pretty damn good source. You're weaseling.

Keep in mind that I've made no comment about what I think Diaz deserves.
That's irrelevant. You said that it was reasonable to assume that he saw this as self defense. No, it is not: he shot at a man who was walking away. This isn't rocket science. A man walking away is not a threat!

It would be interesting to know how Splain knew this detail (he wasn't a witness).
"Splain" being a police captain, I suspect he used a secret police technique called "Asking witnesses."

I'd guess that "self defence" would account for a small minority of homicides (in the US) (ignoring law enforcement).
Who cares what you'd guess?

I said that was stupid (ie, inexcusable). But I don't know exacly how things escalated. Nor do you.
I do know that it doesn't matter. Your "He thought he had to defend himself" CANNOT REALISTICALLY APPLY TO AN UNARMED VICTIM WHO IS WALKING AWAY.

It would seem to mean that there was absolutely no reason for this to have gotten out of hand. There were numerous options that could have been taken by Diaz (certainly) and the cyclist to have avoided any shots being fired.
The most important being not trying to shoot a man in the back of the skull.

So, it looked like that helped in this case. What test do you propose that would make sure, a priori, that people are sufficiently responsable?
You need to learn to read. I didn't say that people should be tested before carrying a gun (although I do). I said that someone who choses to carry a concealed weapon has volunteered to do so and therefore should be held to a higher standard of legally correct behaviour than an unarmed person. He has chosen to undertake a responsibility - saying afterwards "Well, gee, I'm an *******, I can't help it!" isn't good enough.
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Old 11-30-09, 04:32 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
(Nothing I said contradicts the idea that the cyclist was shot-at while walking away.)
Hello??? You said that it was reasonable to think the shooter thought he was acting in self defense. Once again, what need is there to defend one's self against someone who is leaving???
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Old 11-30-09, 05:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
This is a stupid argument coming from someone who assumed a couple of posts ago that he DID know what had happened, based on a now pulled news story! A (non-pulled) news story based on testimony in court is a pretty damn good source. You're weaseling.
Please point out where I was wrong! Note that there (obviously) are details missing. "in his car window" does imply that the cyclist was next to the car (this was incorrect because I have no idea where the cyclist was when the shot was fired).

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Hello??? You said that it was reasonable to think the shooter thought he was acting in self defense.
It's what the shooter was reported to have said (who else would know about him "feeling threatened"?). Of course, the shooter could be lying.

Personally, I don't think it makes much sense that he felt threated but, then again, I don't think I have all the facts about the case.

Anyway, the general story doesn't make much sense to me. I suspect there is stuff missing from it.

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
Once again, what need is there to defend one's self against someone who is leaving???
Heck, I think it's stupid even if cyclist wasn't leaving.

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
CANNOT REALISTICALLY APPLY TO AN UNARMED VICTIM WHO IS WALKING AWAY.
This is what the article said (which is quite different from what you said):
When Simons began to walk away, Diez shot at him.
https://www.citizen-times.com/article...EWS01/91119061

So, was he walking away or was he turning?

I suppose your excessive use of uppercase letters makes you the authority!

Originally Posted by meanwhile View Post
You need to learn to read. I didn't say that people should be tested before carrying a gun (although I do). I said that someone who choses to carry a concealed weapon has volunteered to do so and therefore should be held to a higher standard of legally correct behaviour than an unarmed person. He has chosen to undertake a responsibility - saying afterwards "Well, gee, I'm an *******, I can't help it!" isn't good enough.
You didn't say that in the original statement. This (now) clarifies what you were trying to get at. I don't disagree with it.

Last edited by njkayaker; 11-30-09 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 11-30-09, 07:06 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
(Nothing I said contradicts the idea that the cyclist was shot-at while walking away.)
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
3) Apparently, Diaz felt threated and shot at the cyclist in his car window
Try again. It is pretty clear that YOU are not even able to read your own post.
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Old 12-07-09, 07:54 AM
  #45  
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Felony conviction with 2 year sentence suspended to 4 months in REAL jail, the rest on probation. Pretty good sentence for someone with no priors and a clean work/military record. In Cook County a rider was attacked by a cager with his car, the driver had a bunch of traffic tickets, suspended license etc, all he got was 4 days. I think people are fixated on the gun thing, what's different if it's a car?

To be fair, Superior Court Judge James Downs sentenced Diez to 15-27 months and suspended all but the 120 days. If Diez screws up, he could get the full sentence.
Diez must abide by a curfew and pay Simons $1,200 to cover medical expenses. He also lost his job as a firefighter.
Diez could've gotten 20-39 months, but with a “mitigating factors” including good character, a solid military service record and a positive employment history — and no previous criminal record — he qualified for the lesser sentence.

Last edited by Mr IGH; 12-07-09 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 12-07-09, 10:39 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Bikepacker67 View Post
The sentence seems fair??
Are you nuts?

People get harsher sentences for simple burglary.
We're talking about almost killing someone.

Again, are you nuts?
People get off with wrist slaps for worse. Anything is better than nothing, and again, it's worth noting that there's more to it than simple jail time.
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Old 12-12-09, 09:40 AM
  #47  
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Now that the criminal trial part is over, Is the cyclist going to sue this fireman in civil court. It takes less evidence. When criminal court fails go to civil lawsuit trial.
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Old 12-12-09, 11:22 AM
  #48  
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A lot of people are always screaming gun control. Real gun control is nailing hard anyone that misuses a gun. In my book if a person is wouned with a gun they should spend a mandantory 15 years in prision. And no whining lawyer or bleeding heart judge could shorten it. Also no parole board could let them out early. That friends is gun control, and was needed in this case.
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Old 12-12-09, 03:05 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by dogbitteneear View Post
Now that the criminal trial part is over, Is the cyclist going to sue this fireman in civil court. It takes less evidence. When criminal court fails go to civil lawsuit trial.
Dogbittenear
Hopefully he will, and I would have to say that it sounds like he has a good case for a civil case.
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Old 12-12-09, 07:51 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Hopefully he will, and I would have to say that it sounds like he has a good case for a civil case.
I don't really see how. What are the damages? I guess the fireman owes him a new helmet, but beyond that ...

Pain and suffering sounds good, but he wasn't even hit. I imagine he got a really good scare, but no physical damage ...
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