Digital_Cowboy

Cyccommute,

Do you think that the design that Wogsterca describes would be better? How many injuries have there been annually since they've been installed?

As has been asked why can't drivers stay awake on their own? Or if they're feeling tired why can't they pull over and either take a short nap or walk around until they wake up?

Digital_Cowboy

RS,

I agree with almost everything you said, except where you consider the shoulder to be the bike lane. Sadly, the vast majority of roads in my area with shoulders the shoulder is no more then 1 or 2 feet wide. And sadly more and more of those shoulders are being repainted as bike lanes. And trust me these shoulders/"bike lanes" have all sorts of debris in them, such as leaves, branches, dead animals, broken glass, pieces of metal, etc. And also sadly there are those who thinks that these shoulder/"bike lanes" are a good thing.

Fortunately here in Fl (or at least here in St. Pete) just because there is a bike lane there is no law that requires us to stay in the bike lane. Which is a good thing as there are more then a few bike lanes that are in the car door zone.

We also here in the city of St. Pete have a trail called the City Trail, and it has a bike lane that I am NOT a BIG fan of. It is a two-way bike lane on a one-way road. Yes, it is separated from the road with a median. But if memory serves me it isn't very wide or high. The next time that I am downtown I'll take a picture of the City Trail, likewise I will take a picture of the 1 to 2 foot wide so called bike lane and post them here at a later time. The only time I have ridden that "trail" I was riding with the flow of traffic on the road that it was running along. I would not feel comfortable riding against the motor vehicle traffic even though the "trail" is separated from the road.

To me it would have made more sense to move over a block or two to the road that is also a one-way road and put the City Trail on both roads. Yes, I realize that that would have doubled the cost of the project but in the long run it would have been the safer way to do things.

Roughstuff

It would be hard to tell is the 2 feet (one foots is rather narrow) would be adequate unless I used this road alot. Where I live many parts of rts20 and 23 have shoulders of this width, and they are very often adequate.

Now I understand all the comments about debris (dead animals? yuck!) but again, this is not a shoudler issue, its a maintenance and cleaning issue. However, riding on the shoulder under these conditions really destroys the joy of cycling. One of the reasons why I use a mirror is I can go smack dab into the middle of the traffic lane provided no vehicles are coming. If traffic is heavy of course, and I am riding more slowly than traffic, the shoulder is just the way it has to be.

By the way I find the grooves capture some of the debris that otherwise would edge over into the shoulder.


roughstuff

Road Fan

In northern Michigan, say between Cadillac and Traverse City I've seen both teh center rumble strip and the edge strip. When I drive it's a good thing, plus I have studied the stats of run-off-road crashes, and these can prevent one of the major causes of these often fatal crashes. In SE Michigan I've seen quite a few on the roadway edges. I haven't heard much in local cyclist complaints, but that doesn't mean much.

Somehow there has to be a balance between cyclist safety and driver safety. My rough estimate is that these could affect up to 2000 fatal driver crashes per year. I forgot the pedalcyclist fatality totals, but is the national annual total up to that point?

If we want to have the road shared, we have to share the road.

As a cyclist I would, at least on these roads with good shoulders, tend to stay on the shoulder, to the right of the strip and the fog line.

Road Fan

You should be able to find something by going to the NHTSA website www.nhtsa.gov, choose Vehicle Safety Research, then search for Rumble Strip. A number of studies and other items will pop up in the search.

One alternative to this road based crash countermeasure is a camera-based lane departure warning system, in which a camera looks forward and detects the lane boundaries. If the car is moving laterally relative to the lane and deviates to a sufficient degree, the system warns the driver. There is hope that such systems will be broadly expanded into lane tracking assistance systems, that would help you actively to keep you in the lane.

Ed Holland

As far right as practicable. If I encountered these enhancements, I would be to the left of them if at all possible.

Chris516

Reminds me of comedian Ron White's 'You Can't Fix Stupid'.

Digital_Cowboy

RS,

Another problem with riding on the shoulder are storm drains, gutter pans, that pose hazards to a cyclist. Plus intersections/driveways where cars other bicycles or dogs can come at one and reducing reaction time.

I agree that debris, and dead animals are more of a maintenance issue rather then a design/shoulder issue. And when I find either debris or dead animals in/on the road if I can do so safely I'll remove it. If I can't I'll call the Bicycle and pedestrian office and report it. If it's a dead animal I will not and do not touch them, but anything else as I said if I can remove it safely I will do so.

You're probably right about the groves catching debris that would otherwise blow onto the shoulder. Which may or may not be a good thing. Fortunately where I live there aren't any if many (to my knowledge) rumble strips, so I don't have a lot of experience with them. And would prefer that if they had to be installed that they be installed as described above, i.e. alternating 2m of rumble strip, 2m of clear road, etc.

Chris516

This is another reason, I 'take the lane'. All the 'garbage'(enhancements, trash, storm drains, dead animals, broken down vehicles, etc.) is along the side of the road. It might seem manipulative of me but, I make use of the word 'practicable' in the traffic code, as a justification for 'taking the lane'.

cyccommute 

We have a few of the interrupted variety...US287 out of Erie, for example...and those are a little easier to deal with. Rumble strips in general have fallen out of favor significantly since around 2000, however, because of the requirement to have at least 3 feet to the outside of the strip. Not many mountain roads have that kind of width so they don't get used there as much. I think there may be maintenance issues when they are used in areas where there is lots of snow too. Makes it harder to plow the roads.

I'm not sure about the bicycle related injuries due to the rumble strips.

As for drivers staying awake, I agree with you. In Colorado, I think they have a bit more use to keep drivers from driving off mountain roads while cornering. Mountain driving is a bit different then plains driving in that there are less issues with people falling asleep and more with people driving off the road way and ending up in a ditch...or at the bottom of a canyon That said, I don't like them on a bike nor while driving.

The Human Car

Seriously I don't get why rumble strips have to be so harsh on a bike. There has to be some method that can address both motorists and cyclists issues. We have rumple strips here on down hills before narrow bridges and there is no way to merge with traffic at speed before the bridge. You have to slow way down to cross the rumble strip and then have very little time between gaps as traffic comes barreling down on you, just no a good way to merge with traffic.

Digital_Cowboy

I can see them used for curves in the mountains. Makes more sense there.

ChipSeal

However, if you choose to ride your bicycle on the shoulder in Texas, you lose your status as "A person operating a bicycle [with] the rights and duties applicable to a driver operating a vehicle", because all the rights and duties imposed by Sec 501 only apply to cyclists on the roadway. Texas law defines roadway as excluding the shoulder specifically.

Bekologist

REALLY? is that what happens? A bicyclist loses their rights and duties as a cyclist the instant they ride on a shoulder? has this even happened?

you'll need to quote court precedent on that one. otherwise it seems you are totally fabricating that marginalizing idea about bicyclists rights in texas.

Roody

OK. I have no problem with your riding on the shoulder if that's what you prefer. But what do you do if something (usually a stopped car, snow drift, or a big tree branch) is obstructing the shoulder? I imagine you do a head check, then merge into the roadway to clear the obstruction. This could be more difficult--or even dangerous--if there were rumble strips along the fog line, couldn't it?

sggoodri

I prefer that drowsy drivers be removed from the roadway rather than be redirected into the travel lane so they can hit somebody farther down the road.

invisiblehand

So what is the practical implication of this? What rights are lost by the cyclist? What, if any, rights are gained by the cyclist?

This looks like a red herring to me.

genec

The "fight for rights" is insignificant when compared to the laws of physics. I'd rather ride on the right than be dead right. And yes, I have ridden in Texas!

genec

Red herring... it's a whole fishy school!

noisebeam

Put them in the the left middle of the lane so the left wheel runs over it if the vehicle moves to far right.

which of course them becomes a great hazard for motorcycles and occasionally cyclists.

Roughstuff

Yes, sort of Roody. What ya do is a head check and merge if it is possible to do so without interfering with the normal flow of traffic in that adjacent lane---just as, if there is an obstruction in the travel lane, you must make accomodations before you swerve into the passing lane. If it is NOT possible to do this, then hit your brakes (what? BIKES stop for an obstruction? I thought only cars had to do that... ) and wait for the adjacent lane to clear.

I don't understand the comments about rumble strips being dangerous. You rattle when you cross them... I've never encountered any 'control the bike' issues. But keep in mind i am a pokey rider.

roughstuff

noisebeam

https://www.richardcmoeur.com/docs/rumblgap.pdf

Roody

I wonder if you're aware that the rumble strips being discussed in this thread are a new type that definitely can cause issues with the control of a bike.

As usual, noisebeam has provided a useful reference: https://www.richardcmoeur.com/docs/rumblgap.pdf

jputnam

Texas law does explicitly allow bicycles on paved shoulders,

Sec. 545.058. Driving on Improved Shoulder. [i.e., a paved shoulder outside the traffic lane] (a) An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of a roadway if that operation is necessary and may be done safely, but only: (1) to stop, stand, or park;(2) to accelerate before entering the main traveled lane of traffic;(3) to decelerate before making a right turn;(4) to pass another vehicle that is slowing or stopped on the main traveled portion of the highway, disabled, or preparing to make a left turn;(5) to allow another vehicle traveling faster to pass;(6) as permitted or required by an official traffic-control device; or(7) to avoid a collision. (b) An operator may drive on an improved shoulder to the left of the main traveled portion of a divided or limited-access or controlled-access highway if that operation may be done safely, but only: (1) to slow or stop when the vehicle is disabled and traffic or other circumstances prohibit the safe movement of the vehicle to the shoulder to the right of the main traveled portion of the roadway;(2) as permitted or required by an official traffic-control device; or(3) to avoid a collision. (c) A limitation in this section on driving on an improved shoulder does not apply to: (1) an authorized emergency vehicle responding to a call;(2) a police patrol; or(3) a bicycle.


In its chapter on bicycle laws, Texas says, "This chapter applies only to a person operating a bicycle on: (1) a highway; or (2) a path set aside for the exclusive operation of bicycles."

Texas law also defines "highway" to include the entire width between the boundary lines of the route,

(5) "Highway or street" means the width between the boundary lines of a publicly maintained way any part of which is open to the public for vehicular travel.


That definition clearly would include the shoulders, unless perhaps the shoulders encroach beyond the actual public way on which the road is built.


But I'm no lawyer, and I can certainly imagine an ill-informed effort to redefine "boundary lines" to mean the lane striping of the road rather than the boundary of the right-of-way.