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Bicycles Allowed Use of Full Lane

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Bicycles Allowed Use of Full Lane

Old 12-16-09, 05:42 PM
  #26  
joejack951
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Originally Posted by Roughstuff View Post
Ask the defendant and his lawyer if they rode bicycles to the courtroom. That should settle the bias issue pretty quickly.

roughstuff
I'm not sure exactly what you are getting at here but when I was ticketed for the same offense as Wooley, I rode my bike to my arraignment, my first trial, my second arraignment, and my appeal.
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Old 12-16-09, 06:12 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Here in Fl FDOT standards say that a road or lane should be at a minimum 14' wide. That allows 3' for the bike to operate in, the 3' buffer zone and 8' for the average motor vehicle. How many roads/lanes in Tn and in your area are 12' or less? I know that sadly it seems as if the majority of roads/lanes in my area are 14' or less thus legally giving cyclists the right not to ride as close to the right edge of the road as motorists (and some LEOs) like to think.

Also keep in mind that it isn't the motorists or the LEOs who get to determine how far to the right, but us the cyclists.
Most of our country roads don't have a center line. They're generally not 28 ft wide. At least most of the fun roads aren't.

I can "determine" the FRAP, but if it's a nonsense unreasonable determination then it won't stand up. The cyclists determine, the judicial system determines whether my determination was reasonable. I keep that in mind. Behaving in an irrationally obstructionist manner doesn't do much for anyone.

I still can't see how a cyclist is entitled to a full lane in TN when the lane is clear at the right allowing the cyclist to operate adjacent to the white line and the lane is at least 14 ft wide. I see no entitlement to that lane in our law. Response from Baufl?
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Old 12-16-09, 06:31 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Standalone View Post
over by the curb=buzzed by dangerous drivers.

taking the lane=buzzed anyway.

this needs to change. I'm for anything that works.
The guys that buzz you when you are in the center of the lane are road-ragers that were probably going to buzz you anyway but feel justified since they think you are legally required to be further over. I recently was buzzed on an empty road by a guy that was looking in his rear view as soon as he passed me. I'm pretty sure if people like that knew it was legal to be farther out they wouldn't be as obnoxious.

It does bother me that so many people feel that it's more important to stay in the lane rather than give a cyclist room. This is something that could be changed through signs.
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Old 12-16-09, 06:33 PM
  #29  
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if the lane is at least 14' wide, it probably qualifies as 'shareable'. However, most urban roads in older cities don't have luxurious 14' wide lanes, in many cases 10 to 12 feet is the norm and some are even narrower.
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Old 12-16-09, 06:44 PM
  #30  
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I can think of exactly one development in town here that has 14' or wider lanes. The insane thing is that they put in a sidewalk "bike path" next to the main road in that development. I can't think of too many roads I've ridden on in Pennsylvania that have lanes wide enough that I would feel safe to share.
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Old 12-16-09, 07:16 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
I may be mistaken, but it doesn't sound as if there were any violations of procedure, so it doesn't sound like he has a leg to stand on for an appeal.
I believe the rules on appeals are different in traffic court cases. In any event, the City Attorney's office (i.e. respondent for the plaintiff) has already filed a document recommending that the conviction be overturned and it is therefore extremely likely that Andrew will win his appeal. See:
https://bicycledriving.googlegroups.c...dentsBrief.pdf
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Old 12-16-09, 07:51 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
I can think of exactly one development in town here that has 14' or wider lanes. The insane thing is that they put in a sidewalk "bike path" next to the main road in that development. I can't think of too many roads I've ridden on in Pennsylvania that have lanes wide enough that I would feel safe to share.
Rural/semi-rural roads in PA? You're lucky if they have 10 foot wide lanes. I've measured some roads at 15 feet wide...total for both lanes.
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Old 12-16-09, 07:59 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by randya View Post
if the lane is at least 14' wide, it probably qualifies as 'shareable'. However, most urban roads in older cities don't have luxurious 14' wide lanes, in many cases 10 to 12 feet is the norm and some are even narrower.
Your typical commercial truck is 9' wide, not including the mirrors, so a lane less then 10' wide isn't really usable by other then cars and bicycles. Such a street probably doesn't see a lot of traffic so using the opposing lane for passing shouldn't be a problem. There are several scenarios and the law typically doesn't differentiate. Unless you have read the actual laws, they may not say what you think they do. Unless you have studied law, they may not mean what you would interpret them as saying, either.

It really takes someone fighting the charges and getting a court to interpret the law to see what it really means.
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Old 12-16-09, 08:08 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca View Post
Your typical commercial truck is 9' wide, not including the mirrors, so a lane less then 10' wide isn't really usable by other then cars and bicycles. Such a street probably doesn't see a lot of traffic so using the opposing lane for passing shouldn't be a problem.
I don't know what it's like up there, Wogs, but here and in other places I have lived, rapid population growth of formerly rural areas into 'exburbs' far outpaced expansion and improvement (if any) to the existing arterial road infrastructure, so many of those narrow roads can be quite heavily trafficked during peak commuting and shopping hours.
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Old 12-16-09, 08:08 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca View Post
Your typical commercial truck is 9' wide, not including the mirrors, so a lane less then 10' wide isn't really usable by other then cars and bicycles. Such a street probably doesn't see a lot of traffic so using the opposing lane for passing shouldn't be a problem. There are several scenarios and the law typically doesn't differentiate. Unless you have read the actual laws, they may not say what you think they do. Unless you have studied law, they may not mean what you would interpret them as saying, either.

It really takes someone fighting the charges and getting a court to interpret the law to see what it really means.
Trucks use lanes less than 10 feet wide all the time around here. They drive on/over the centerline and opposing traffic either squeezes by or goes slightly offroad to pass.

Also, low traffic is only a small indicator of how easy it is to pass on a given roadway. Blind curves and hillcrests can make passing quite difficult even when opposing traffic is minimal.
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Old 12-16-09, 10:07 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
I believe the rules on appeals are different in traffic court cases. In any event, the City Attorney's office (i.e. respondent for the plaintiff) has already filed a document recommending that the conviction be overturned and it is therefore extremely likely that Andrew will win his appeal. See:
https://bicycledriving.googlegroups.c...dentsBrief.pdf
From reading what was posted earlier and reading the PDF file, I would have to say that probably the best chance for either an acquittal in the initial court case or appeal is that cyclist was actually traveling faster then traffic at the time he was ticketed.

Of course had he been more respectful towards the cop he might have gotten off with a warning and not been issued a ticket.
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Old 12-16-09, 10:10 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by mandovoodoo View Post
Most of our country roads don't have a center line. They're generally not 28 ft wide. At least most of the fun roads aren't.

I can "determine" the FRAP, but if it's a nonsense unreasonable determination then it won't stand up. The cyclists determine, the judicial system determines whether my determination was reasonable. I keep that in mind. Behaving in an irrationally obstructionist manner doesn't do much for anyone.

I still can't see how a cyclist is entitled to a full lane in TN when the lane is clear at the right allowing the cyclist to operate adjacent to the white line and the lane is at least 14 ft wide. I see no entitlement to that lane in our law. Response from Baufl?
I know what ya mean, I can't think of too many of the roads that I regularly ride on that have lanes that are at least 14' wide. Most of them are under that by several feet, and the only way to widen them to 14' in each direction would be to seize private property.
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Old 12-16-09, 10:12 PM
  #38  
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I finally looked at the OP's web site, and I think it's a good idea for people to deploy these stickers everywhere. It represents a different way of thinking that is alien to many people, even some cyclists. Even if I don't demand a full lane all the time, I want the people passing me to approach that pass with at least as much respect as they would when they are passing grandpa in his ancient Buick.
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Old 12-16-09, 11:12 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca View Post
Your typical commercial truck is 9' wide, not including the mirrors, so a lane less then 10' wide isn't really usable by other then cars and bicycles.
and yet SE Hawthorne has two 9.5' wide lanes in each direction, relatively heavy passenger car traffic, bus service every 15 minutes in each direction, and a fair amount of local delivery truck traffic as well. The busses and trucks typically take up a full lane plus about 1/4 of the adjacent lane, and to pass them you need to cross the double yellow line into the oncoming traffic.

Originally Posted by Wogsterca View Post
Such a street probably doesn't see a lot of traffic so using the opposing lane for passing shouldn't be a problem.
wrong, see above, SE Hawthorne Blvd is a heavily used arterial
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Old 12-17-09, 07:00 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
Of course had he been more respectful towards the cop he might have gotten off with a warning and not been issued a ticket.
Having been in a similar situation, and only a week before having had 45 minutes of my life wasted by two cops yelling at me and calling me names (only to then realize I was right the whole time about the laws), someone's patience can only last so long. When someone in a position of authority lies to your face, it's very difficult to not get a little indignant.
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Old 12-17-09, 08:14 AM
  #41  
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Interesting thread, with the inclusion of that case in San Diego.

I'm amazed the judge ignored the law and ruled against the defendant. Wasn't it obvious that the cyclists was travelling at least at the speed of traffic, if not at a higher speed? What difference does it make when the officer said that traffic could have cleared up at any point and then the cyclist wouldn't have been going at the speed of traffic? None! It's heresay, first of all, since come cyclists can go 35 mph (although I cannot), and second of all, it's irrelevant since you can't prosecute someone for something that might happen.
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Old 12-17-09, 09:12 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by AdamDZ View Post
Roughtstuff, cycling differs heavily between areas. I think we often make mistakes thinking about cycling without applying location filters. ......Adam
Correct. In cities, where shoulders are just nonexistent and impossible to put in even if we wanted to, there is only 'one lane.' And like you said, given the parked cars, you have to worry about dooring and urchins running out into traffic. Under those circumstances, a.u.f.l. is really the only way to go. Many other urban specific behaviors (filtering, lane splitting, etc) should be evaluated for their overall contribution to good traffic flow (or the opposite) as well. The results of these studies have already been discussed in other forums.

I know lane splitting has been allowed for motorcycles (and bicycles, as well) in many places, but it always seemed a hollow victory to me. Lane splitting appears dangerous to me, even if the vehicles are stopped at a light.

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Old 12-17-09, 09:30 AM
  #43  
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I really like the cyclist may use the full lane sign. It's much better than "Share the Road," which implies the cager can share the lane with you and pass close by you. This signage is a big improvement.
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Old 12-17-09, 09:38 AM
  #44  
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This morning was windy and I didn't feel like fighting the headwind so I was going slowly all the way to the right. I actually stopped at a light. As the light changed and started moving an idiot in a big-ass SUV side-swept me, lucky just hit my pannier only slightly upsetting my balance and he drove away. I chased him to the next light and yelled at him, I think he was actually scared of me (I had full face balaclava and goggles on) maybe he'll pay more attention to cyclists from now on? Anyway, if I was taking a full line that most likely wouldn't have happened.

Funny commute anyway. Few blocks before that, a woman walks on the street, on the bike line and the wrong way, facing me (there is perfectly fine sidewalk right there) - so I have the traffic on my left, parked cars on the right and a zombie walking right at me - and she says "turn off that light *******". Are people really THAT stupid? I was speechless, I just shook my head and laughed, I had no words for her.

Adam
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Old 12-17-09, 09:46 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by AdamDZ View Post
This morning was windy and I didn't feel like fighting the headwind so I was going slowly all the way to the right. I actually stopped at a light. As the light changed and started moving an idiot in a big-ass SUV side-swept me, lucky just hit my pannier only slightly upsetting my balance and he drove away. I chased him to the next light and yelled at him, I think he was actually scared of me (I had full face balaclava and goggles on) maybe he'll pay more attention to cyclists from now on? Anyway, if I was taking a full line that most likely wouldn't have happened.

Funny commute anyway. Few blocks before that, a woman walks on the street, on the bike line and the wrong way, facing me (there is perfectly fine sidewalk right there) - so I have the traffic on my left, parked cars on the right and a zombie walking right at me - and she says "turn off that light *******". Are people really THAT stupid? I was speechless, I just shook my head and laughed, I had no words for her.

Adam
Let me beat the idiots to it and get it out in the open asap--was she hot?
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Old 12-17-09, 10:00 AM
  #46  
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ROFLMAO, hard to tell, she was bundled up, (30F and windy).

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Old 12-17-09, 12:25 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Having been in a similar situation, and only a week before having had 45 minutes of my life wasted by two cops yelling at me and calling me names (only to then realize I was right the whole time about the laws), someone's patience can only last so long. When someone in a position of authority lies to your face, it's very difficult to not get a little indignant.
I fully understand that, as well as understanding how hard it is to resist the knee jerk reaction of yelling at someone when you know that what you are doing is right. But that is also the time when it serves us most to not lose one's cool and to retain their "Military Bearing."
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Old 12-17-09, 12:31 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by thdave View Post
Interesting thread, with the inclusion of that case in San Diego.

I'm amazed the judge ignored the law and ruled against the defendant. Wasn't it obvious that the cyclists was travelling at least at the speed of traffic, if not at a higher speed? What difference does it make when the officer said that traffic could have cleared up at any point and then the cyclist wouldn't have been going at the speed of traffic? None! It's heresay, first of all, since come cyclists can go 35 mph (although I cannot), and second of all, it's irrelevant since you can't prosecute someone for something that might happen.
It's not hearsay IF the officer is giving testimony about what he saw or heard. It would hearsay if say I heard you tell someone something and I told the court what you'd said. Then yes that's hearsay, but direct testimony from the officer about what he observed isn't hearsay.

And your right we can't or shouldn't be prosecuted for something that might happen, unless it can be proved that the individual in question is part of a conspiracy to commit a crime, such as a group of people planing to rob a bank, or armored car or what have you. Then they can be arrested for what might happen because they are conspiring to commit a crime.
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Old 12-17-09, 12:51 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by AdamDZ View Post

<Snip>

Funny commute anyway. Few blocks before that, a woman walks on the street, on the bike line and the wrong way, facing me (there is perfectly fine sidewalk right there) - so I have the traffic on my left, parked cars on the right and a zombie walking right at me - and she says "turn off that light *******". Are people really THAT stupid? I was speechless, I just shook my head and laughed, I had no words for her.

Adam
A similar thing happened the other night when my riding buddy and I went out for a ride. When we got close to the downtown area the road that we ride has bike lanes on both side, on street parking on both sides (it should be no surprise that the bike lane is smack square in the door zone) there is also a sidewalk on at least one side of the street. As well as a park. And on the side of the road my buddy and I are riding there's also a jogger running down the road. Fortunately unlike your jogger ours didn't tell us to turn off our lights. But he was running in the clearly marked bike lane, when he could have been safely running through the park, oh and no Mr. Jogger wasn't wearing a safety vest, or carrying any kind of light with him. Just running shirtless.

People talk about the "dangers" of bicycles "all of the time," but what about the dangers of walkers and joggers who don't pay any attention where they're going, or what they're doing? Don't they realize that by not wearing a safety vest when walking or running at night that they're even harder to see then a ninja cyclist?
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Old 12-17-09, 01:16 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
It's not hearsay IF the officer is giving testimony about what he saw or heard. It would hearsay if say I heard you tell someone something and I told the court what you'd said. Then yes that's hearsay, but direct testimony from the officer about what he observed isn't hearsay.

And your right we can't or shouldn't be prosecuted for something that might happen, unless it can be proved that the individual in question is part of a conspiracy to commit a crime, such as a group of people planing to rob a bank, or armored car or what have you. Then they can be arrested for what might happen because they are conspiring to commit a crime.
Hearsay is the wrong word. Not sure what it is, but I bet there's a legal term regarding what you wrote. The police and judge should know better. I imagine that if the cyclist had a lawyer present, he would have objected to the policeman's comment as to what might happen if the traffic cleared up. I think the judge bought it, but shouldn't have.
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