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Dutch may allow roadway cycling as overcrowded cycling paths leads to safety issues

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Dutch may allow roadway cycling as overcrowded cycling paths leads to safety issues

Old 12-06-10, 02:42 PM
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Dutch may allow roadway cycling as overcrowded cycling paths leads to safety issues

https://au.news.yahoo.com/entertainme...ls-of-success/
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Old 12-06-10, 02:59 PM
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The funny thing to me is that it reads just like typical problems with US roadways but sub car for bicycle and change the numbers around.
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Old 12-06-10, 03:31 PM
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Oh my, they will be forced to ride VC, oh the horror.

At least cyclist that wish to ride at a reasonable speed would now be allowed to.
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Old 12-06-10, 03:37 PM
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"More people also means less safe cycle paths," ...

And the figures for 2009 make grim reading: 185 cyclists killed in road accidents according to the Central Office of Statistics (CBS).
What happened to that safety in numbers theory?
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Old 12-06-10, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
What happened to that safety in numbers theory?
Safety in numbers only applies to nonsegregated roadways.
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Old 12-06-10, 10:56 PM
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hehe.

the critics, quick to disparage one of the most bike friendly cities in the world.

what really happened is there isn't enough room for the all bicycle traffic AND there has been a real boom in mopeds in the bikelanes in amsterdam and copenhagen (and likely all cities in europe) - mopeds, which also skew the recent traffictek report out of copenhagen.

i sincerely doubt anyone is going to be 'forced' to take the lane in front of 45mph traffic like we get to quite frequently here in the USA, CBHI! but someone needs to keep that dream alive for the danes, i guess.

Again, the real problems are the sheer successes of the amsterdam bike plan, and the influx of mopeds in the bikelanes. Similar "success" jams of bicycle traffic are being seen in Portland during rush hour congestion over some of the main bridges into downtown, isn't that right, Randya? Portland widened the Hawthorne bridge cycling facilities because of all the bike traffic.

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-06-10 at 11:13 PM.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
Portland widened the Hawthorne bridge cycling facilities because of all the bike traffic.
not quite true, they only provided a short half block uphill passing lane on the climb from street level to viaduct level.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:08 PM
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its crowded though during rush hour, isn't it. cyclists have been complaining about the congestion during rush hour there for a while.

looking into it, looks like PDOT the improved the morrison bridge bikeway to alleviate hawthorne bridge bikeway congestion.

The dutch cycling federation president said it best in the first paragraphs, cycling congestion is a result of being a victim of their own success in promoting the bicycle as transport. Even the article title, randya.......

Dutch cyclists caught up in the wheels of success,


the aside about roadway cycling was a very minor point from a lady at the dutch sport cycling federation. a roadie.

Banning mopeds from their bikeways seems like a sensible part of the solution in the Netherlands.

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-06-10 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 12-06-10, 11:11 PM
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I have no idea, I studiously avoid rush hour at all costs

the Morrison Bridge improvements have nothing to do with alleviating congestion on other bridges, it was simply the implementation of a long-standing plan to improve access on all bridges, the Morrison Bridge plan has been around in one form or another since at least 1993; for that matter, do you even have any idea of the relative numbers of cyclists on the two bridges since the Morrison bridge path opened? I doubt it.

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Old 12-06-10, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
What happened to that safety in numbers theory?
To be fair, that's several times fewer accidents-per-cyclist-capita than, say, 7 cyclists killed in one year in a typical American city. (multiply by 6-9 to account for population, multiply by ~20-40 to account for modal share difference)
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Old 12-06-10, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by randya View Post
I have no idea, I studiously avoid rush hour at all costs
oh, come on, i'm sure you've read about it at bike portland or in the popular press there. it was a big issue in 2009. the morrison bridge improvements were touted as alleviating some of the hawthorne bridge congestion by the city and in the press.

No matter. the dutch will still bike.

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Old 12-06-10, 11:39 PM
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Motorized vehicles are not allowed on US bicycle paths.
Holland needs to adopt the same idea; it would move all those mopeds and other motorized conveyances (inlcuding scooters) on the road with autos/trucks.
Having said that, we do like riding bike paths, so we ride the road with the rest of the traffic.
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Old 12-07-10, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by degnaw View Post
To be fair, that's several times fewer accidents-per-cyclist-capita than, say, 7 cyclists killed in one year in a typical American city. (multiply by 6-9 to account for population, multiply by ~20-40 to account for modal share difference)
So name ten typical US cities of similar size that have seven cyclist deaths per year. Then we can work on the rest of the assumptions.
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Old 12-07-10, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
hehe.

the critics, quick to disparage one of the most bike friendly cities in the world.
In my experience, the city was far from bike friendly. The bike ghettos were an eyesore, the motorists were particularly aggressive if you weren't where you "should" be, the general riders were aggressive in driving other off the paths out of their way, and the surfaces of the bicycle infrastructure were extremely poor compared with the beautifully smooth roadways just metres/yards away.

The mopeds are a real problem. They were, when I was there, powered by two-stroke engines that spewed out awful fumes, and cyclists were becoming second-class citizens on what was supposed to be their own facilities.

As always with the cycling advocates -- they want to create the demand but have no forethought to servicing that demand with adequate, long-term facilities.
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Old 12-07-10, 02:46 AM
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The Current Issue of Bicycle Times has a lead story about cycling in Holland.. It mostly makes Dutch cycling sound like a well planned , absolute success story..
. Watching Dutch commuters might lend one to think congestion is congestion and human nature takes over during rush hour no matter what is the mode of transportation.?
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Old 12-07-10, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by zonatandem View Post
Motorized vehicles are not allowed on US bicycle paths.
Holland needs to adopt the same idea; it would move all those mopeds and other motorized conveyances (inlcuding scooters) on the road with autos/trucks.
Having said that, we do like riding bike paths, so we ride the road with the rest of the traffic.
I'm with Zonatandem. The real way to solve that problem is to move motorized traffic out of the bike lane.

Question: A faster cyclist can't leave the bike lane to pass a slower cyclist or cyclists in Holland? If so, that is one backward system.

This coupled with Rowan's experience makes me very glad I don't have to put up with the problems presented by this type of suppression.

Last edited by CommuterRun; 12-07-10 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 12-09-10, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
hehe.

the critics, quick to disparage one of the most bike friendly cities in the world.
you need to take off those rosy glasses.

Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
what really happened is there isn't enough room for the all bicycle traffic AND there has been a real boom in mopeds in the bikelanes in amsterdam bla bla bla
if you actually lived here, you'd realize that's that's only one small part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
In my experience, the city was far from bike friendly. The bike ghettos were an eyesore, the motorists were particularly aggressive if you weren't where you "should" be, the general riders were aggressive in driving other off the paths out of their way, and the surfaces of the bicycle infrastructure were extremely poor compared with the beautifully smooth roadways just metres/yards away.

The mopeds are a real problem. They were, when I was there, powered by two-stroke engines that spewed out awful fumes, and cyclists were becoming second-class citizens on what was supposed to be their own facilities.

As always with the cycling advocates -- they want to create the demand but have no forethought to servicing that demand with adequate, long-term facilities.
agreed.
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Old 12-09-10, 08:00 AM
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Meh. I rarely found congestion to be a problem (in Denmark). Sure, you can't always go as fast as you want. Oh well. Welcome to rush hour.
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Old 12-09-10, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
So name ten typical US cities of similar size that have seven cyclist deaths per year. Then we can work on the rest of the assumptions.
Can't really find city-specific stats, so I'm just going to average out the entire country.
US: 784 deaths/year, population 300,000,000, 2.6e-6 deaths per person
NL: 185 deaths/year, population 16,000,000, 1.2e-5 deaths per person

Going by this alone, cycling in NL is 5 times more dangerous. I don't know the exact modal shares of cycling in the US and NL, but it's something close to 1-2% and 35%? which is way more than a factor of 5.
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Old 12-09-10, 11:34 AM
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cyclist fatality rates in the Netherlands are about 1.1 per million km cycled, here in the US fatality rates are more than five times that. Cycling there is five times safer than the US.

Here's a great report with a broader scope of European policies in a 2008 report of the Transportation Research Board on trends and safety statistics on cycling in Europe: called cycling for everyone: lessons from Europe

cycling for everyone: lessons from Europe

this report details and addresses contemporary trends in cycling in the netherlands and other countries there with high ridershare.

Heck, the dutch undertake 27 percent of their urban trips by bicycle.

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Old 12-09-10, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
So name ten typical US cities of similar size that have seven cyclist deaths per year. Then we can work on the rest of the assumptions.
Name ten typical US cities of similar size that have any significant modal share for cycling.

No cyclists, so therefore no cycling deaths.
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Old 12-09-10, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
bla bla bla
have you ever been here?
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Old 12-09-10, 02:46 PM
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as if THAT'S a requirement to discuss issues in this modern age!

tell us, Botto, how it is for you.

What you think the dutch planners should do about all the bicycle traffic and the mopeds in the bikelanes?

v
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Old 12-09-10, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
as if THAT'S a requirement to discuss issues in this modern age!

tell us, Botto, how it is for you.

What you think the dutch planners should do about all the bicycle traffic and the mopeds in the bikelanes?

v
ah yes. the so called "modern age", where clueless dip****s, such as yourself can wax moronic about things they are clearly clueless about.

no wonder you're a grease monkey in a bike shop.
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Old 12-09-10, 03:06 PM
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thanks for making my day, dude! HILARIOUS.
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