Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Bike Lane Backlash in NYC

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Bike Lane Backlash in NYC

Old 12-06-10, 02:46 PM
  #1  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Bike Lane Backlash in NYC

Transportation chief Jeanette Sadik-Khan needs to back up her bike lanes with facts
Editorials
Monday, December 6th 2010, 4:00 AM

Transportation Commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan has been on a roll. She's been installing bicycle lanes everyplace she can squeeze them. The cyclists love it.

And then there's everyone else.

With Mayor Bloomberg's backing, Sadik-Khan is reallocating space on the streets among motorized vehicles, bicycles and pedestrians.

She says she is doing everyone a favor by erecting barriers, pushing cars to park in the middle of avenues and creating clear pedaling for two-wheeled travelers. We dare her. Prove it.

This is Bloomberg's data-driven administration, the government that measures and calculates to figure out whether something works. At this late date, Sadik-Khan should have at her fingertips facts and figures that tell the tale of what she hath wrought. For example:

- Have dedicated bike lanes slowed vehicular traffic? If so, by how much?

- How many bicyclists actually use the lanes?

- How many bicyclists are a) ignoring the lanes or b) riding recklessly while doing so?

- Have the bike lanes affected both vehicular and pedestrian safety?

The commissioner's office has little of this information, opening her to understandable suspicion that she - an avid cyclist - just wants to impose her own preferences (and dreams of easing global warming) on an entire city.

Adding to the suspicion are Sadik-Khan's feints and changing standards.

In March, in a speech at Los Angeles' Occidental College, she said of the bike lanes, "You have to experiment, try things out. If it doesn't work, okay, you move on and try something else."

She also said she had discovered that she could more easily persuade New Yorkers to go along with transportation changes if she labeled them experiments. However, Sadik-Khan's press office says the lanes were never experimental.
Read more: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/...#ixzz17Mn6mUPe

https://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/2010...nd-cheese.html
randya is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 03:38 PM
  #2  
mikeybikes
Senior Member
 
mikeybikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,214

Bikes: Tons

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You mean there are no data on the safety or effectiveness of these facilities? Shocking.

It is amazing to me that we can spend a crapload of money on projects like this without any sort of evaluation. Cities do it all the time. I don't necessarily disagree that the money was well spent, I just have no way of knowing.

Denver's traffic engineering department is going to build similar bikelanes down 15th street. Before they do, however, they are going to perform traffic studies to determine what traffic is like before the bike lane. Then, they'll perform a traffic study afterwards to determine how the bike lane has effected traffic. Seems like New York should be doing this too...
mikeybikes is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 03:50 PM
  #3  
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 13,596
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked 41 Times in 25 Posts
If Denver does not study traffic changes on at least two streets adjoining on each side of 15th street, then they will not be doing it right either.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 11:04 PM
  #4  
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,025

Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
NY Daily news opinion from a few days prior :

Janette Sadik-Khan and Mayor Bloomberg are right: You should love bike lanes



seems like the daily news needs to unify its' editorial platform, and stop playing it so dumb!

why you should love NYC bike lanes

Originally Posted by NYTimes 12/5/10
This unprecedented boom has sparked a surge in riders: The number of bike commuters grew 79% during this time. As more bicyclists take to the street, evidence shows that the streets become safer for everyone - pedestrians, cyclists and, yes, even drivers. Streets with bike lanes see 40% fewer crashes ending in death or serious injury by slowing down cars and encouraging drivers to look twice. Last year was the safest for traffic since the city began keeping records 100 years ago.......

On Ninth Ave., with a protected bike lane from 16th to 31st Sts., injuries have been cut by 56% for all road users - including a 29% reduction in injuries to pedestrians, according to the Transportation Department..........

In fact, bike lanes go through a rigorous vetting process before they are installed. Each added lane is part of the city's Bicycle Master Plan, and locations are picked with community feedback.......

The recent announcement of plans for a Paris-style public bike-sharing system will make bike lanes ever more vital, since half of New Yorkers' trips are two miles or less, and the city's flat terrain lends itself to two-wheel travel.......

The city must redouble its efforts to build a bike network that is cohesive, comprehensive and permanent. That's why I believe in bike lanes - for your health and for the safety of all New Yorkers.
Bekologist is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 11:10 PM
  #5  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
White is executive director of Transportation Alternatives.
more propaganda from the paint and path 'advocates'
randya is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 11:14 PM
  #6  
buzzman
----
 
buzzman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Newton, MA
Posts: 4,574
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I started biking quite a bit in NYC back in 1990. Comparing riding in NYC then to now is like two separate worlds. I like it much better now. And bike infrastructure makes the difference. Is some of the infrastructure sub-standard?- you bet! Is it still an overall vast improvement over no infrastructure- absolutely!

I'm sure the crowd that loves having a private automobile in NYC is bent out of shape by the changes. Well...get over it.

Originally Posted by Bike Snob Blog
Here (NYC), a bike lane is a failure if drivers don't like it... Hence, we should remove the bike lanes because people who don't ride bikes don't like them, and all they're doing successfully is preventing deaths:

The best her aides could provide were statistics showing, they said, that collisions between pedestrians and bicyclists or motor vehicles on avenues with bike lanes tended to produce fewer fatalities and less serious injuries than crashes elsewhere.

Clearly we need a new Department of Transportation commissioner, since it does not behoove New York's gritty reputation to have streets that are not sufficiently deadly.
buzzman is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 11:15 PM
  #7  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
now this is a bit over the top.

a NYC cabbie complaining about scofflaw cyclists.



pot. kettle. black. anyone?

Here he is complaining about the cyclist he almost doored:
Just last week, as I parked on Broadway on the upper West Side and emerged from my car to put money into a meter, a bike came along and almost clipped me. But because the light was green, the biker technically did nothing illegal (or even wrong) in causing this near collision. It would have been nice, however, if there were a modicum of warning as he approached.


Read more: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/...#ixzz17OtGTqVn

Last edited by randya; 12-06-10 at 11:19 PM.
randya is offline  
Old 12-06-10, 11:21 PM
  #8  
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,025

Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
white is executive director of Transportation Alternatives
Exactly, Randya.

Who do you think is more in the know about transportation issues in NYC, the editor hacks of the NY daily news or a guy working to make New York City kinder and gentler to pedestrians, bicyclists and transit riders?
Bekologist is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 07:48 AM
  #9  
mikeybikes
Senior Member
 
mikeybikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,214

Bikes: Tons

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
Exactly, Randya.

Who do you think is more in the know about transportation issues in NYC, the editor hacks of the NY daily news or a guy working to make New York City kinder and gentler to pedestrians, bicyclists and transit riders?
Who do you think is more biased?

Really, without any data on the safety or effectiveness of these facilities, both are blowing smoke.
mikeybikes is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 08:38 AM
  #10  
buzzman
----
 
buzzman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Newton, MA
Posts: 4,574
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by mikeybikes View Post
Who do you think is more biased?

Really, without any data on the safety or effectiveness of these facilities, both are blowing smoke.
Huh? There has been a ton of research on the efficacy of NYC's bike lanes over the past 5 years- do some research. Or read the article carefully, which was linked by the OP. Even the castigating article had this to say:

The best her aides could provide were statistics showing, they said, that collisions between pedestrians and bicyclists or motor vehicles on avenues with bike lanes tended to produce fewer fatalities and less serious injuries than crashes elsewhere.
What more data on safety and effectiveness do you need?
buzzman is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 09:56 AM
  #11  
mikeybikes
Senior Member
 
mikeybikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,214

Bikes: Tons

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
What more data on safety and effectiveness do you need?
Has there been an actually traffic study that the engineers have performed?
mikeybikes is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 10:01 AM
  #12  
invisiblehand
Part-time epistemologist
 
invisiblehand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,862

Bikes: Jamis Nova, Bike Friday NWT, STRIDA, Austro Daimler Vent Noir, Haluzak Horizon, Salsa La Raza, Hollands Tourer, Bike Friday tikit

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by buzzman View Post
What more data on safety and effectiveness do you need?
I have not had an opportunity to read through this particular article. But just based on my memory of other articles and reports ...

(1) Why injury severity went down would helpful. Was it because road speeds went down such that collisions produced less serious injuries? Was it simply because the type of cyclist on those roads were different than on other streets?

(2) We've seen quite a variation in facility design. And we know that there is a big variation in road design. We both understand the underlying arguments such that we would suspect different collision rates, injury severity, and performance. Identifying these effects would be helpful.

(3) Did harassment of law abiding cyclists on non-bike-laned streets increase? Did collisions/injurity severity on non-bike-laned streets increase?

(4) What happened with solo crashes?

(5) What happened to crime?

(6) What happened to the number automobile crashes and injury severity?

(7) What happened to travel times?

... and we can go on and on.

Personally, it seems to me that the research on NYC bike lanes is fairly limited. And it is the case that data collection is expensive and difficult to execute properly. So we have to work with what we have and within our means. But it also means that the model we impose on the data is going to be highly informative.
__________________
A narrative on bicycle driving.
invisiblehand is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 10:20 AM
  #13  
SCROUDS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
now this is a bit over the top.

a NYC cabbie complaining about scofflaw cyclists.



pot. kettle. black. anyone?

Here he is complaining about the cyclist he almost doored:




Read more: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/...#ixzz17OtGTqVn
lol. I think he wants all cyclists in the city to stick a playing card in their spokes to announce their prescense.
SCROUDS is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 10:31 AM
  #14  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
more propaganda from the paint and path 'advocates'
Oh but if the VC crowd touts "no bike lanes" and illustrates their "cause" with the fact that fewer and more experienced cyclists (read "messengers") moving quickly through the motor traffic have few accidents, that is not propaganda? ***

The real metric is what is the accident rate per active cyclist AND how many active cyclists are there. Comparing scrapped knees of children to broken bones is hardly apples to oranges.


*** lets examine "statics" for a moment... if one cyclist never has an accident, there is a 100% success rate, but if there are 100 cyclists and 3 of them scrape a knee, then there is a 3% accident rate... think about that for a moment.

Oh sure, the presence of such "facilities" as bike lanes may mean that the "speedster cyclist" can't ride at 22MPH down some favored street, due in part to all the other bike traffic there... but this is EXACTLY what all motorist face daily... so many other road users that they cannot move at their desired top speed. So why should "mr speedster" fare any better than the rest of humanity? BTW ever try running down a crowded sidewalk?
genec is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 10:53 AM
  #15  
invisiblehand
Part-time epistemologist
 
invisiblehand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 5,862

Bikes: Jamis Nova, Bike Friday NWT, STRIDA, Austro Daimler Vent Noir, Haluzak Horizon, Salsa La Raza, Hollands Tourer, Bike Friday tikit

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
The real metric is what is the accident rate per active cyclist AND how many active cyclists are there. Comparing scrapped knees of children to broken bones is hardly apples to oranges.
Doesn't the second sentence imply that the first sentence is wrong?
__________________
A narrative on bicycle driving.
invisiblehand is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 11:08 AM
  #16  
mustachiod
Senior Member
 
mustachiod's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 699
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
tell them to move to toronto: https://www.treehugger.com/files/2010...of-toronto.php
mustachiod is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 12:11 PM
  #17  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
Doesn't the second sentence imply that the first sentence is wrong?
No. The first sentence says that cycling accidents need to be normalized for the population of active cyclists... the second sentence disses the accident rate agenda that has been highlighted by the VC crowd... where they put all data in the same bucket regardless of severity.

But indeed you brought up a good point... that stats should be divided in age groups to offer a better picture of what is really going on.
genec is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 01:47 PM
  #18  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Oh but if the VC crowd touts "no bike lanes" and illustrates their "cause" with the fact that fewer and more experienced cyclists (read "messengers") moving quickly through the motor traffic have few accidents, that is not propaganda? ***

The real metric is what is the accident rate per active cyclist AND how many active cyclists are there. Comparing scrapped knees of children to broken bones is hardly apples to oranges.


*** lets examine "statics" for a moment... if one cyclist never has an accident, there is a 100% success rate, but if there are 100 cyclists and 3 of them scrape a knee, then there is a 3% accident rate... think about that for a moment.

Oh sure, the presence of such "facilities" as bike lanes may mean that the "speedster cyclist" can't ride at 22MPH down some favored street, due in part to all the other bike traffic there... but this is EXACTLY what all motorist face daily... so many other road users that they cannot move at their desired top speed. So why should "mr speedster" fare any better than the rest of humanity? BTW ever try running down a crowded sidewalk?
As you know, I am not opposed to bicycle-specific infrastructure, as long as it is properly designed and safe to use at normal skill levels and speeds.

I am and will forever be opposed to poorly designed, unsafe infrastructure that cyclists are forced to use, and which cater to the lowest common denominator entry-level cyclists; furthermore, I no longer have any patience for 'advocates' that promote these types of facilities despite a clear lack of evidence indicating their safety benefits for cyclists.
randya is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 02:15 PM
  #19  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
As you know, I am not opposed to bicycle-specific infrastructure, as long as it is properly designed and safe to use at normal skill levels and speeds.

I am and will forever be opposed to poorly designed, unsafe infrastructure that cyclists are forced to use, and which cater to the lowest common denominator entry-level cyclists; furthermore, I no longer have any patience for 'advocates' that promote these types of facilities despite a clear lack of evidence indicating their safety benefits for cyclists.
While I agree with your sentiment... how clearly must the evidence be beyond:
The best her aides could provide were statistics showing, they said, that collisions between pedestrians and bicyclists or motor vehicles on avenues with bike lanes tended to produce fewer fatalities and less serious injuries than crashes elsewhere.
See, the problem comes with trying to prove that "clear lack of evidence." Everybody gets out their marginal data and looks for the .00001% difference.

And yes I agree that substandard facilities should not be stood for either... DZBL I believe are huge mistakes... but then so are excessive speed limits... yet those too seem to crop up everywhere. Although I doubt the NYC core area has speed limits much higher than 25MPH... but since I have never been to NYC, I really don't know... which brings up the whole issue of folks on the west coast discussing that which may or may not work for those in an east coast city.
genec is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 02:47 PM
  #20  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by genec View Post
I really don't know... which brings up the whole issue of folks on the west coast discussing that which may or may not work for those in an east coast city.
this applies to both sides of the argument.

and one thing they don't address is whether the new facilities in NYC are suitable for normal cycling speeds, which IMO would be in the 10 to 20 MPH range, if you're going more than 15-20 mph, you shouldn't be on the bike path.
randya is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 03:11 PM
  #21  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
this applies to both sides of the argument.

and one thing they don't address is whether the new facilities in NYC are suitable for normal cycling speeds, which IMO would be in the 10 to 20 MPH range, if you're going more than 15-20 mph, you shouldn't be on the bike path.
OK but what happens to any "conduit" be it roadway, or data wire or bike path, or sidewalk when there is slower traffic ahead??? Everything behind slows down. So if I design a path for 25MPH bike traffic and you end up behind a bunch of 10MPH cyclists...
genec is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 03:18 PM
  #22  
randya
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
randya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: in bed with your mom
Posts: 13,696

Bikes: who cares?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by genec View Post
OK but what happens to any "conduit" be it roadway, or data wire or bike path, or sidewalk when there is slower traffic ahead??? Everything behind slows down. So if I design a path for 25MPH bike traffic and you end up behind a bunch of 10MPH cyclists...
that's exactly the way roads are designed for motorists, why should cycling facilities be any different?
randya is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 03:26 PM
  #23  
mikeybikes
Senior Member
 
mikeybikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edgewater, CO
Posts: 3,214

Bikes: Tons

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
that's exactly the way roads are designed for motorists, why should cycling facilities be any different?
High traffic roads also usually have passing facilities... It didn't really appear all that possible to pass someone on that 1st Ave bike lane.
mikeybikes is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 03:38 PM
  #24  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by randya View Post
that's exactly the way roads are designed for motorists, why should cycling facilities be any different?
I just wanted to clarify that lest some here feel that it is always the path that is restricting speed, vice the traffic on the path.
genec is offline  
Old 12-07-10, 03:40 PM
  #25  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,587

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8628 Post(s)
Liked 991 Times in 682 Posts
Originally Posted by mikeybikes View Post
High traffic roads also usually have passing facilities... It didn't really appear all that possible to pass someone on that 1st Ave bike lane.
Not always... take note of any freeway at about 5:00 PM in the evening... not a lot of passing going on then. There is always a limit to any "conduit," be it a highway, a bike path, or a water pipe.
genec is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.