Unreasonable

A&S seems like a mildly appropriate place for this.

I've recently started driving buses. If there's one thing I fear most, it's not sharp turns. It's not stopping distance. It's not how wide the bus is. It's bike lanes. Obviously, I know how vulnerable us cyclists are and I watch my mirrors very carefully when I'm pulling through a bike lane into a stop, but it doesn't make me have any less of a mild heart attack when I think maybe there's a bike right in that small blind spot that I didn't see come up, especially since my bus is so close to the lane.

I'd much rather have them in front or behind me, so that I can pull off like I would if it were just a car. Without worrying that there was a car next to me too.

So maybe consider that when you're riding around a downtown area with transit bus stops. If there's a bus nearby, ride out of the lane to make it easier on the driver. I know I'd prefer it.

MilitantPotato

I hear ya.
I think for me it's equally scary riding next to a bus or large vehicle. I've driven a large vehicle, and there's no chance of seeing a cyclist along side you. If a bus is moving and I'm along side, you'd see me finding the quickest way out of that position, normally I slow down.

At lights I stop right at the right rear corner, or directly infront of the bus so they know full well where I'm at. Unless I'm 100% I can get by the bus while it's stopped, I won't try and pass them, and I'll only go by on the left.

DX-MAN

BRAVO!

Absolute fact and truth; a large vehicle like a bus also will, by its very nature, have a larger blind spot; I have actually seen people CHOOSE to get IN that blind spot! Good luck with THAT frivolous lawsuit...IF you live...............

With one or two exceptions (female drivers who think their friends getting on is a license for a cackle session during the route), I have MAD respect for bus drivers; I couldn't do it, I'd go Rambo.

sggoodri

Does the striped bike lane change the dynamic compared to a very wide lane without the stripe?

How often are cyclists overtaking on the right, versus the bus having to slow after starting to overtake a cyclist, and matching speeds?

In NC, overtaking on the right is unlawful unless done in a separate marked lane. I wonder if the lane striping gives them a greater sense of entitlement to pass on the right.

I've never passed a bus on the right. I've passed stopped buses on the left, and had them start to pull out when they didn't see me, but I quickly learned to pass farther away so I'd be where the driver was looking for overtaking traffic, and haven't had any issues since then. I stay in line with bus traffic and pass on the left if I think passing is worth the effort.

Raleigh is planning to install door zone bike lanes between a 10' wide travel lane and a row of car parking on the main bus route through NC State University. The other side of the 10' travel lane is a raised center median. Staying out of the door zone will require cyclists to ride with their handlebar overhanging the bike lane stripe into the 10' travel lane.

What advice should be given to cyclists using that route? What advice should be given to bus drivers?

High Roller

Sounds like being a cyclist is making you a better bus driver.

Of all the places where bike lanes don't belong, downtown, with its abundance of intersections, slower moving traffic, cross-traffic, parked cars, and buses, is first on the list. I try to avoid the curb side of buses like the plague. If a bus is in the curbside lane and I can't pass on the left, I stay behind. And try to position myself so I can see their side-view mirrors (so presumably the bus driver can see me).

Unreasonable

It does, a bit. I quickly found out that a lane considered small to a passenger vehicle is sad and scary to a large vehicle.

This might just be set up to a "People need to drive safely" type of deal. When I need to overtake a bike, bike lane or not, I become much more careful as I'll normally be pulling onto the other side of the road anyway so I don't blow the cyclist down with the draft.

To be honest, I really wouldn't mind that if it was on a long stretch of road and the motor vehicles were in stop and go. But when it's in an area where there are constant bus stops (such as inner town/city, the places where there are likely to be bike lanes), it just seems dangerous to me.

Just something to remember is that it's not that they're not watching for you as well, it's that they can't. Their mirrors, when it comes to the very side of their bus (where the bike lanes probably are), don't show much further front than the rear wheel. So if you're in the middle of the bus, they literally can't see you. And sticking your head out the window to check is sometimes unreasonable and maybe not possible.

For cyclists... probably take the lane more. By seeing a cyclist in a bike lane, I know motorists would think that means there's room for them to not adjust their lane position. But by seeing a cyclist in the lane (even just a bit), it makes the motorist hopefully pay more attention and slow down to watch the passing distance. It also gives you more time to emergency swerve.

For bus drivers... probably just cry. If the lane is a really tight fit, it's going to be rough on all parties. Like I said before, it amounts to being a good driver. Hopefully the driver will slow down, pay more attention to the right side, and just be safe in driver. Especially for CDL holders, you can usually trust that they'll do so - considering their job depends on them being a good driver... I'm worried about the assault of stories of awful bus/truck drivers I'm going to get.

For the cyclists in that situation, just remember how much of a situation it is. Maybe pull furthur over, slow down and enter the door zone so that the bus can pass without swiping you off your bike.

The Human Car

There is no doubt that bus driver training is lacking on how to to drive safely around cyclists as well as the lack of education to cyclists on how to ride safely around a bus. Good luck out there!

TheHen

Hold on a sec. Do you know what happens when a bike "enters the door zone" and wins the door prize? They will likely end up right where your wheels are about to roll, and probably not in an upright position. Unless the cyclist has nerves of steel and reacts to the opening of a door by steering into it instead of flinching and trying to avoid it, this is the worst advice you could give to a cyclist faced with a door-zone bike lane. Like you said, just be a good driver. If it is not safe to pass, wait. Even if the cyclist sends the wrong signal by staying mostly in a dzbl, wait until it is safe.

Unreasonable

That's not what I meant. As a bus driver, I would (and have) wait(ed) until it was safe. But also as a cyclist, if it's a situation in which it's taking a long time before there's an appropriate time to pass, I'd hope the cyclist (myself included) would yield their hold to the bus. I would never ask the cyclist to put themselves in danger, I'd never want to be in danger. But to slow down and carefully ride in the door zone, you don't have to stop and the vehicle which doesn't have a choice but to wait can pass.

It's a give and take thing.

Digital_Cowboy

In the situation you've described. If there are ANY cars in the bike lane, I would recommend exiting the bike lane until you've passed the last of the on street parking parked cars. That is what I do here in St. Pete, as it has been mentioned last year former Gov. Crist signed into law a change to the bicycle law requiring cyclists to ride in a bike lane if one is present.

There is a bike lane on several of my routes. On one route the bike lane is right next to on street parking, right in the door zone. If there are any cars in the bike lane I either do not enter it if the first car is too close the intersection that I am turning from. Or I wait until I am at least one car's length from the first parked car before pulling out of the bike lane. And I don't reenter the lane until I've passed the last car. This is a one-lane one-way road so, so as not to slow motorists down I will use the bike lane.

On the other side (there's a canal going down the middle) there is a bike lane along a two-lane road with a wide outside (thus making the bike lane really not needed) and a narrow second lane. I don't ride the bike lane for the simple fact that it is always full of some sort of debris. There is also a bike lane going around a curve, which again I do NOT ride in, for the simple fact that I've seen way TOO many motorists drift over into the bike lane for me to feel safe riding in it.

sggoodri

There are always parked cars in that parking lane until late at night, due to the school on one side of the road and bars/restaurants on the other. Some City of Raleigh representatives mentioned wanting to create an education campaign about staying out of the door zone while riding on that stretch of road; I said the educational message has to be to stay out of the bike lane. There simply isn't room for a bus to pass safely legally between the raised median and the side of the bicyclist riding on the leftmost edge of the bike lane, outside the door zone.

Digital_Cowboy

In that case than, yeah I'd say stay out of the bike lane. Hopefully no one will give cyclists any problems who do that, but if they do hopefully all one would have to do is to point to the parked cars and say how they present a greater danger to cyclists IF said cyclists stayed within the bike lane.

What's also sad is how a lot of motorists think that just because we're in the bike lane that they no longer have to give a safe passing buffer when passing us. It's almost as if they think that the bike lane is going to protect us or something.

Chris516

I won't consider it, because I 'take the lane'. When I see/hear a bus behind me, I make sure I am directly in front of them so they can't claim they didn't see me.

CB HI

When reading the full context of the OP, I understood he was trying to say 'ride out of the (bike) lane'. In other words, he is suggesting we take the travel lane.

sudo bike

This logic seems counter-productive to me. "So they can't claim they didn't see me" seems to imply that they can't claim they didn't see you in the event they hit you, in which case you're probably either dead or not in good shape.

Not saying taking the lane is a bad idea, just questioning the logic behind it here. I'm going to do whatever I need to do to stay safe on the road (which does generally entail taking the lane), not something that either makes me a martyr or puts me in a better legal position after an accident has occurred. I'm more focused on just avoiding the accident... generally for me this tends to end up a balance between asserting my right to the road, and riding courteously.

Sorry if I read a bit too much into your post there, I just felt it noteworthy enough to address...

EDIT: Derp, as CBHI pointed out, I think he meant the bikelane anyway. All the same...

Unreasonable

Yeah, sorry about that. I meant out of the bike lane. Whether you choose to let cars decide whether or not they want to "share" the lane alongside you or you take control of the lane, just don't be on the side of a bus. Especially if it's by bus stops. I'd prefer to be behind you then next to you, and I'm sure you would too.

009jim

I do the safety inductions where I work and part of it is telling people who cycle to work not to get beside a bus. Another thought I had was that buses should be required to fit an audible alarm on the sides which is activated when the bus driver turns the indicator on.

Tem

A video camera mounted on the right side mirror could give a full view of the right side including the blind spot. Video cameras are pretty inexpensive now. I know retrofitting an entire fleet would still be expensive, but including them with new vehicles wouldn't add that much cost. Does anyone know if this has been tried anywhere?

Chris516

I didn't see it as your reading too much into it. But almost FRAP'ing by the definition of the motorist, instead of the cyclist's definition. That means, a motorist doesn't care about the debris a cyclist has to avoid on the road.

Yes, A bus is a big vehicle, but I would rather be where the driver can see me without question. Instead of riding in their blind spot.

sudo bike

Well, I definitely don't FRAP by motorist definition!

For example, the other day I was riding down an area where I take the lane. In my mirror I see a short school bus behind me. He slows down, I look back so he knows I see him. I move right as an intentional "Pass me", he courteously passes me with plenty of room and we exchange a wave. Obviously, not all interactions go this smoothly, but this is what I usually am shooting for. Cooperative, not subservient. It isn't my or his road, it's our road to share. I'd do the same were I in a slower car. But I never compromise safety (i.e. if moving over would have initiated an unsafe pass, I would've waited). YMMV.

Otherwise, fair enough.

billdsd

I almost never pass a bus on the right. It seems insane to me. The last time I did, I was never really behind the bus. I was never further than halfway back on it. The driver tried to pass and then realized too late that he didn't have enough room to make the bus stop before passing me. At least he didn't move over into me at that point. I would have had nowhere to go.

When they're in front of me and slowing down, I pass on the left. It's much easier that way. CVC 21208 allows me to leave the bike lane to pass anything blocking the bike lane and CVC 21202 exempts me from the requirement to keep far right when moving left is necessary to pass something blocking the right side.

I find that most MTS/NCTD bus drivers are pretty good around bikes. I see the occasional idiot driving these things but most of them are pretty good. The killers are the college shuttles, especially USD* shuttles. Those idiots are as bad as cab drivers.

*USD is University of San Diego - A private catholic college - not to be confused with UCSD or SDSU which are state colleges.

hairnet

Bus drivers here suck a lot of the time. They often do pass and squeeze us to the curb, which results in a slap to the driver's mirror. They seem to have been getting better over the last year though

noisebeam

If there is a bus or other large vehicle in front of me I am behind it on the drivers side far enough back so I can see their left side rear view mirror - that way I know they can see me when then look and even if they don't I either need to slow/stop when they do or more likely am in position to pass on left.

randya

Paris has full width shared bike/bus lanes, which gives you space to pass on the left when the bus is pulling over to stop, it's a much better design than the US bike lane to the right of the bus, which is just plain stupidly unsafe

Chris516

Good!!!!

[QUOTE=sudo bike;12339619]For example, the other day I was riding down an area where I take the lane. In my mirror I see a short school bus behind me. He slows down, I look back so he knows I see him. I move right as an intentional "Pass me", he courteously passes me with plenty of room and we exchange a wave. Obviously, not all interactions go this smoothly, but this is what I usually am shooting for. Cooperative, not subservient. It isn't my or his road, it's our road to share. I'd do the same were I in a slower car. But I never compromise safety (i.e. if moving over would have initiated an unsafe pass, I would've waited). YMMV.[/QUOTE

I marginally disagree with that. While I agree about making sure the motorist passes safely, my contention is, not allowing them to straddle the lane(four-lane)/yellow line(two-lane), in order to pass safely.

Traffic law presumes, that by a cyclist FRAP'ing and the 3-foot law, a motorist can pass without putting the lives of themselves, the cyclist and oncoming traffic, in danger. It is because of this errant thinking, that lives are actually being put in more danger. Instead of waiting to pass, just like passing a motorcycle/four-wheel vehicle.

Ah, good.