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-   -   Boston law enforcement fail (https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/758725-boston-law-enforcement-fail.html)

bluefoxicy 08-09-11 09:22 AM

Boston law enforcement fail
 
http://articles.boston.com/2011-08-0...on-police-bike


But, as police, court administrators, and Registry officials became aware this spring, the law also inadvertently did away with punishments for bicyclists who fail to pay tickets.

Without any clear way to collect fines or punish those who ignore tickets, authorities have been left with a procedure reliant on the honor system. As a result, it appears that a number of police departments are choosing not to ticket bicyclists. Boston police, as of last week, had issued 60 warnings - but zero tickets - to bikers since the Hubway added 600 bikes to city streets.
FAIL.

Cyclist runs stop sign, red light, wrong way down a one way street ... we could ticket 'em $20 but oh... if they don't pay it then uh... oh... never mind then.

Idiots. Try again. Get it right this time.

unterhausen 08-09-11 11:18 AM

I think a lot of bike violations are the result of lack of knowledge, so a warning may actually be the best outcome.

The fact that violations might cost you upwards of $150 doesn't stop cyclists around here. That tells me that people don't realize that they are violating the law.

Seattle Forrest 08-09-11 11:21 AM

Bike "advocates" demanding that police harass and ticket cyclists ... with "friends" like these, who needs enemies?

TheHen 08-09-11 02:37 PM


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 13057691)
Bike "advocates" demanding that police harass and ticket cyclists ... with "friends" like these, who needs enemies?

The most significant risks I face on my bike are from lawless behavior by motorists. Those risks could be substantially reduced or eliminated by vigorous enforcement of the traffic laws. It would be hypocritical of me to ask law enforcement to selectively enforce the traffic laws. Therefore, I have no problem with cyclists receiving citations for moving violations. If we want lawful behavior on the roads, we can't say everyone except us needs to obey the laws.

FWIW, I have lived in a city that had a zero-tolerance policy for all traffic laws for all road users. While the cyclists complained, it did indeed make for a very bike-friendly city. In fact, in the late '70s and early '80s we had between 70% and 90% of all intra-city trips being made by bike. The traffic enforcement stopped and the bikes left. Of course other things happened as well, but I have not seen another city in the U.S. that has achieved anything near what we took for granted.

bluefoxicy 08-09-11 02:52 PM


Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 13058832)
The most significant risks I face on my bike are from lawless behavior by motorists. Those risks could be substantially reduced or eliminated by vigorous enforcement of the traffic laws. It would be hypocritical of me to ask law enforcement to selectively enforce the traffic laws. Therefore, I have no problem with cyclists receiving citations for moving violations. If we want lawful behavior on the roads, we can't say everyone except us needs to obey the laws.

This.

Cars can't legally run stop signs, and cars get ticketed for illegally running stop signs.

Don't tell me it doesn't matter that you're on a bike, and that the law that says you can't run a stop sign is stupid, and so you're going to do it anyway, and you shouldn't be ticketed for it. You are going to pay the fine. They can't take your license away for it, but you can go ahead and make the city rich if you like.

Speedo 08-09-11 04:06 PM


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 13057691)
Bike "advocates" demanding that police harass and ticket cyclists ... with "friends" like these, who needs enemies?

+1

Actually I don't understand why they stopped issuing tickets. I think the intention of the loophole was that they couldn't take away your license for failure to pay, but it leaves open some other administrative approach short of taking away someones driver's license. For example, you show up to renew your license and when the unpaid bike tickets show up they send you to cool your heels on the Group W bench while waiting to explain your unpaid tickets to Larry, but Larry is on break, for the next week...

Speedo

Keith99 08-09-11 04:22 PM


Originally Posted by Speedo (Post 13059267)
+1

Actually I don't understand why they stopped issuing tickets. I think the intention of the loophole was that they couldn't take away your license for failure to pay, but it leaves open some other administrative approach short of taking away someones driver's license. For example, you show up to renew your license and when the unpaid bike tickets show up they send you to cool your heels on the Group W bench while waiting to explain your unpaid tickets to Larry, but Larry is on break, for the next week...

Speedo

Your example obviously fails. If yuo had even skimmed the atttached article you would also know that other paths are also closed.

BTW this is not a failure of Law Enforcemnet, it is a failure of legislators.

trackhub 08-09-11 05:09 PM


Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 13059338)
BTW this is not a failure of Law Enforcemnet, it is a failure of legislators.

Aww nuts! I was going to say that, but thanks.


'tis true. The MA legislature, also known as "The General Court" rarely does the right thing. Often, there are serious gaps in the law, and this is one of them.

But, for the record: In MA, if you are issued a civil citation for a violation committed on a bicycle, it cannot effect your driving record. None of the dreaded "points on your license".

The fact that you committed the violation while riding a bicycle must be duly noted on the citation.

unterhausen 08-09-11 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 13059338)
BTW this is not a failure of Law Enforcemnet, it is a failure of legislators.

I suspect this is a political stunt on the part of police in order to get people to pressure their legislators.

Pete In Az 08-09-11 07:51 PM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 13059787)
I suspect this is a political stunt on the part of police in order to get people to pressure their legislators.

Or they got tired of wasting their time writing unenforcible tickets.

unterhausen 08-09-11 09:35 PM


Originally Posted by Pete In Az (Post 13060254)
Or they got tired of wasting their time writing unenforcible tickets.

that theory would be more credible if they hadn't called the papers about it

Digital_Cowboy 08-10-11 01:39 AM


Originally Posted by unterhausen (Post 13057669)
I think a lot of bike violations are the result of lack of knowledge, so a warning may actually be the best outcome.

The fact that violations might cost you upwards of $150 doesn't stop cyclists around here. That tells me that people don't realize that they are violating the law.

I agree when a city/county/state/the Federal government modifies/passes a new law PSAs should be run in all of the local media, TV, Radio Stations, Newspapers and magazines.

And until "everyone" is familiar with the new law/modification issuing a warning is the way to go once a reasonable amount of time has passed start issuing tickets.

I know that this will anger some, but maybe it's high time that infractions on a bike carried over to a person's license to drive a car and their insurance. Maybe that is what it'll take for them to take it seriously. As I've said here in Florida a student who has bad grades and poor attendance can find themselves being delayed in getting their learner's permit.


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 13057691)
Bike "advocates" demanding that police harass and ticket cyclists ... with "friends" like these, who needs enemies?

Uh, what's wrong with the police issuing tickets to cyclists who run stop lights/signs, ride against the flow of traffic, and ride without lights, etc.? The "mantra:"

Same Roads
Same Rights
Same Rules

Has to be more than just words being said or printed on a bumper sticker. If we want the same rights to the same roads we HAVE to follow the same rules. Otherwise they are meaningless.

And how is it "harassment" for a cop to pull over a cyclist who is breaking the law? If a cyclist doesn't want to be "harassed" by the police DON'T BREAK THE LAW, it's as simple as that.

I-Like-To-Bike 08-10-11 01:51 AM


Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy (Post 13061185)
Uh, what's wrong with the police issuing tickets to cyclists who run stop lights/signs, ride against the flow of traffic, and ride without lights, etc.? The "mantra:"

Same Roads
Same Rights
Same Rules

Has to be more than just words being said or printed on a bumper sticker. If we want the same rights to the same roads we HAVE to follow the same rules. Otherwise they are meaningless.

Who is this "we" you speak of (and think you speak for), and when did "we" endorse this "mantra" as our creed?

Digital_Cowboy 08-10-11 02:32 AM


Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 13058832)
The most significant risks I face on my bike are from lawless behavior by motorists. Those risks could be substantially reduced or eliminated by vigorous enforcement of the traffic laws. It would be hypocritical of me to ask law enforcement to selectively enforce the traffic laws. Therefore, I have no problem with cyclists receiving citations for moving violations. If we want lawful behavior on the roads, we can't say everyone except us needs to obey the laws.

Agreed, it is asinine to expect everyone else on the road to obey the rules of the road except cyclists.


Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 13058832)
FWIW, I have lived in a city that had a zero-tolerance policy for all traffic laws for all road users. While the cyclists complained, it did indeed make for a very bike-friendly city. In fact, in the late '70s and early '80s we had between 70% and 90% of all intra-city trips being made by bike. The traffic enforcement stopped and the bikes left. Of course other things happened as well, but I have not seen another city in the U.S. that has achieved anything near what we took for granted.


Cyclaholic 08-10-11 07:48 AM


Originally Posted by bluefoxicy (Post 13058912)
This.

Cars can't legally run stop signs, and cars get ticketed for illegally running stop signs.

Don't tell me it doesn't matter that you're on a bike, and that the law that says you can't run a stop sign is stupid, and so you're going to do it anyway, and you shouldn't be ticketed for it. You are going to pay the fine. They can't take your license away for it, but you can go ahead and make the city rich if you like.

To apply the same penalty to cyclists and drivers is asinine. Driver runs a red, hits cyclist, cyclist dies. Cyclist runs a red, hits car, cyclist dies. Can you see a pattern there? ...to equate a cyclist running a red with a driver running a red is like equating someone assaulting you by tapping you with a feather with someone beating you almost to death with a baseball bat. Both an assault, yes, but deserving of the exact same penalty? No.

Speedo 08-10-11 07:58 AM


Originally Posted by Keith99 (Post 13059338)
Your example obviously fails. If yuo had even skimmed the atttached article you would also know that other paths are also closed.

BTW this is not a failure of Law Enforcemnet, it is a failure of legislators.

Hmmm. I read the article. I don't see why my example fails. I didn't say that the scofflaw cyclist would be denied their license. I said that administrative means could be used to put pressure on the scofflaw cyclist at the pressure point where they renew their license.

Under the old law, citations needed to be written on bike specific ticket books. Police often did not have those on hand so few tickets were issued. This was supposed to kind of split the difference.

Speedo

bluefoxicy 08-10-11 08:36 AM


Originally Posted by Cyclaholic (Post 13061857)
To apply the same penalty to cyclists and drivers is asinine. Driver runs a red, hits cyclist, cyclist dies. Cyclist runs a red, hits car, cyclist dies.


Who said you had to fine them the same? The fine for burning stuff in your back yard is $200, the fine for burning down a grocery store is $5,000 plus jail time.

Why don't you think instead of knee-jerk whining about how you should be allowed to do whatever the hell you want without penalty?

zac 08-11-11 09:08 AM

Unfortunately the article is wrong about its characterization of the law. The New ch.85 sec 11E is merely a correction from an earlier correction that inadvertently left out a section about use of the funds. See MGL ch.85, sec.11C and it's amendments and final repeal by Acts. 2009, Ch.65, sections 5 and 6.

Citations for traffic violations committed by a bicycle operator in Mass have never been allowed to be counted against the bicyclists driver's license or insurance surcharge points. This is nothing new, and certainly was not introduced by the new section 11E. (It was part of the law prior to 2009 too (see, sec.11C), it was merely just codified by that change then.)

The Boston Police are disingenuous about their characterization. Their fail is that they designed ticket citations without any provision to check off that the offender was on a bicycle, as is now and has always been a required part of the law. All that changed was the requirement that citations be issued on the standard MV citation that is issued by the Registry of Motor Vehicles, and reported to the Registry. Prior to the law change in 2009, bicycle citations, were handled locally. They can still do this, they just don't know it yet, because they never issued them before, and have no idea what or how to go about it. (see below).

As to the law being toothless, well nothing really has changed there. A city or town that issues a bicycle citation certainly has recourse to compel payment, but it would require the relevant city/town solicitor to take action. Thereafter, as part of the process and upon ignoring a judgment and continued non-payment, a capias could issue...however, it is likely not cost effective on an individual basis. However a city the size of Boston could easily assign a solicitor to get judgements on outstanding bicycle tickets...this could be done on a semi-annual basis, but again one has to ask if it is economically cost effective, as well as resource effective.

Additionally a city or town has the right to home rule petition to issue and enforce bicycle citations under local ordinance. But I am unaware of any that have outside of a select few greater Boston 'burbs.

This is just a matter of the cities and towns being lazy about taking proactive steps toward enforcement and recognition of bicycle laws. In plain simple terms: bicycles don't matter to them, never have, never will, until such time that they realize that a potential revenue stream has now been codified and they don't know how to get at it yet.

To me, ticketing bicycle violators is pretty low on the totem pole of social ills that need addressing in our society.

Seattle Forrest 08-11-11 10:15 AM


Originally Posted by TheHen (Post 13058832)
The most significant risks I face on my bike are from lawless behavior by motorists. Those risks could be substantially reduced or eliminated by vigorous enforcement of the traffic laws. It would be hypocritical of me to ask law enforcement to selectively enforce the traffic laws.

The severest risks you face are from drivers, so you think the solution is to ticket cyclists...? :rolleyes:

Digital_Cowboy 08-11-11 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 13068141)
The severest risks you face are from drivers, so you think the solution is to ticket cyclists...? :rolleyes:

If they're breaking the law, yes ticket them. Running red lights, stop signs, riding against the flow of traffic and without lights. Then they should be ticketed for that.

What makes cyclists so "special" that they're exempt from the rules of the road?

Digital_Cowboy 08-11-11 06:39 PM

To those who think that "no one" notices the actions of cyclists. You're wrong, today while on my ride which includes two laps around The Pier. As I'm heading down for my first lap, one of the security guards thanked me for stopping for the stop sign.

KD5NRH 08-13-11 01:30 AM

IMO, two weeks after a major change is barely time to start issuing tickets to repeat and/or serious offenders. I know that when they've changes yield signs to stop signs around here, for the first month they usually give rolling stops warnings unless they recognize the driver as a repeat offender. The guys that blow through while accelerating will still get a ticket during that time though.

I-Like-To-Bike 08-13-11 06:51 AM


Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy (Post 13070606)
To those who think that "no one" notices the actions of cyclists. You're wrong, today while on my ride which includes two laps around The Pier. As I'm heading down for my first lap, one of the security guards thanked me for stopping for the stop sign.

Someone noticed you. Big darn deal!

dnuzzomueller 08-13-11 07:12 AM

As a courier in Boston I actually appreciate the more "Lax" approach by law enforcement here. I find that if a police officer tells me to stop, I stop, most of the times they will wave me through but I respect the police here in Boston. I am glad to hear they are choosing to be selective but that is just my view. Just do what the police verbally tell you to do and everything tends to work out pretty fine here. I have run reds after stopping and looking many a time directly in-front of police officers both in cars and those standing on the sidewalk. As long as you don't cause an issue it tends to work out.

I know there are many safety advocates that do not share my view and I accept that. I do though have a much more "Kill or be killed" attitude when it comes to riding in the city, If you need the lane, take it, if you don't then don't block others, if you can get through a situation carefully, do it, if you are in the wrong don't expect others to watch out for your mistakes, accept the consequences of your actions.

Chris516 08-13-11 09:15 PM


Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike (Post 13076979)
Someone noticed you. Big darn deal!

Did we wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?:notamused:


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